Thermogenics and nutrient absorption

here is an interesting study (unfortunately with dogs) that suggests yohimbine might mediate the effects of catecholamines

jb

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Title: Yohimbine increases plasma insulin concentrations of dogs.
Author: Hsu, W H : Schaffer, D D : Pineda, M H
Citation: Proc-Soc-Exp-Biol-Med. 1987 Mar; 184(3): 345-9
Abstract: Recent evidence suggests that catecholamines inhibit insulin release by stimulating alpha 2-adrenoreceptors in beta-cells of the pancreatic islets. In the present study, iv injections of 0.1 and 0.3 mg/kg of yohimbine, an alpha 2-adrenoreceptor antagonist, resulted in increased plasma insulin and decreased plasma glucose concentrations in the dog. The use of alpha 2-adrenoreceptor antagonists may be of value in non-insulin-dependent diabetic patients by counteracting the inhibitory influence of endogenous catecholamines

how about posting up some of the evidence that shows pre exercise yohimbine administration will not help fat release. all the reports i have seen suggest that in a fasted state yohimbine does exactly that. this is a very interesting line of questioning and i am really looking hard for a specific study that address post exercise yohimbine adminstration on the effect of carbs and insulin levels. it appears that yohimbine adminstered during exercise mediates insulin levels for a short time beofre they start dropping, the question is: if yohimbine is taken post exercise, will it effect insulin levels after ingesting of carbs?

jb

***now we are really hijacking the thread but i think this is relevant and worthwhile.

Posted by: pillsbury

also...
further evidence shows that even yohimbe or ephedrine before workout will not help fat release for training, or to a worthwhile degree (benefits vs negatives; compared to how much amino breakdown vs fat use).
while yohimbe targets the alpha-adrenergic receptors i dont think its very effecient at higher intensities esp without glucose/glycogen

im sure i made this way too complicated.
so carb before yay, no carb before/keto nay!

this is a very interesting read.

jb

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International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: nutrient timing.
Kerksick C, Harvey T, Stout J, Campbell B, Wilborn C, Kreider R, Kalman D, Ziegenfuss T, Lopez H, Landis J, Ivy JL, Antonio J.

Department of Health and Exercise Science, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK 73019, USA. [email protected].

Erratum in:

J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2008;5:18.

Abstract
Position Statement: The position of the Society regarding nutrient timing and the intake of carbohydrates, proteins, and fats in reference to healthy, exercising individuals is summarized by the following eight points: 1.) Maximal endogenous glycogen stores are best promoted by following a high-glycemic, high-carbohydrate (CHO) diet (600 - 1000 grams CHO or ~8 - 10 g CHO/kg/d), and ingestion of free amino acids and protein (PRO) alone or in combination with CHO before resistance exercise can maximally stimulate protein synthesis. 2.) During exercise, CHO should be consumed at a rate of 30 - 60 grams of CHO/hour in a 6 - 8% CHO solution (8 - 16 fluid ounces) every 10 - 15 minutes. Adding PRO to create a CHO:PRO ratio of 3 - 4:1 may increase endurance performance and maximally promotes glycogen re-synthesis during acute and subsequent bouts of endurance exercise. 3.) Ingesting CHO alone or in combination with PRO during resistance exercise increases muscle glycogen, offsets muscle damage, and facilitates greater training adaptations after either acute or prolonged periods of supplementation with resistance training. 4.) Post-exercise (within 30 minutes) consumption of CHO at high dosages (8 - 10 g CHO/kg/day) have been shown to stimulate muscle glycogen re-synthesis, while adding PRO (0.2 g - 0.5 g PRO/kg/day) to CHO at a ratio of 3 - 4:1 (CHO: PRO) may further enhance glycogen re-synthesis. 5.) Post-exercise ingestion (immediately to 3 h post) of amino acids, primarily essential amino acids, has been shown to stimulate robust increases in muscle protein synthesis, while the addition of CHO may stimulate even greater levels of protein synthesis. Additionally, pre-exercise consumption of a CHO + PRO supplement may result in peak levels of protein synthesis. 6.) During consistent, prolonged resistance training, post-exercise consumption of varying doses of CHO + PRO supplements in varying dosages have been shown to stimulate improvements in strength and body composition when compared to control or placebo conditions. 7.) The addition of creatine (Cr) (0.1 g Cr/kg/day) to a CHO + PRO supplement may facilitate even greater adaptations to resistance training. 8.) Nutrient timing incorporates the use of methodical planning and eating of whole foods, nutrients extracted from food, and other sources. The timing of the energy intake and the ratio of certain ingested macronutrients are likely the attributes which allow for enhanced recovery and tissue repair following high-volume exercise, augmented muscle protein synthesis, and improved mood states when compared with unplanned or traditional strategies of nutrient intake.

Posted by: jboldman

how about posting up some of the evidence that shows pre exercise yohimbine administration will not help fat release. all the reports i have seen suggest that in a fasted state yohimbine does exactly that. this is a very interesting line of questioning and i am really looking hard for a specific study that address post exercise yohimbine adminstration on the effect of carbs and insulin levels. it appears that yohimbine adminstered during exercise mediates insulin levels for a short time beofre they start dropping, the question is: if yohimbine is taken post exercise, will it effect insulin levels after ingesting of carbs?

jb

***now we are really hijacking the thread but i think this is relevant and worthwhile.

i will try to refind what i did about not help fat release. however what i was trying to say and what article was saying is that yohimbe WILL help fat release, the problem is that without sufficient glycogen stores or presence of usable energy supply (glucose) then the body will start shredding aminos for glucose via gluconeogenesis. this is something that, especially in weightlifting, event training, etc... will promote more aminos for fuel rather than fat. so not to say it doesnt promote fat loss, rather the type of activity perfmored while training will favor this breakdown over fat loss. so my point was that it seems counterproductive to try and train in fasted state even when relying on ephedrine/yohimbe.
it would make further sense that you would take yohimbe or whatever substance you choose, jack carbs, aminos and insulin pre and during training. you would still basically have a drip effect of fat for energy, plus you would have plenty of stored and avail energy to minimize breakdown of protein/aminos. if one so chooses to go a step further then cardio could be done at end when catecholamines are at their highest and while yohimbe is still in sytem, would be like double time fat usage.

Posted by: jboldman

here is an interesting study (unfortunately with dogs) that suggests yohimbine might mediate the effects of catecholamines

jb

==================

Title: Yohimbine increases plasma insulin concentrations of dogs.
Author: Hsu, W H : Schaffer, D D : Pineda, M H
Citation: Proc-Soc-Exp-Biol-Med. 1987 Mar; 184(3): 345-9
Abstract: Recent evidence suggests that catecholamines inhibit insulin release by stimulating alpha 2-adrenoreceptors in beta-cells of the pancreatic islets. In the present study, iv injections of 0.1 and 0.3 mg/kg of yohimbine, an alpha 2-adrenoreceptor antagonist, resulted in increased plasma insulin and decreased plasma glucose concentrations in the dog. The use of alpha 2-adrenoreceptor antagonists may be of value in non-insulin-dependent diabetic patients by counteracting the inhibitory influence of endogenous catecholamines

yes, ablsolutely it mediates it, that is how it mechanically works. yohimbe promotes release of norepinepherine which is a catecholamine! yohimbe will interact with specific cellular receptors, alpha-andrenergic receptors. ephedrine is similar to epinepherine which is also a catecholamine that interacts with beta-andrenergic receptors. so you see catecholamines are your friends. they will however cause muscle catabolism as well that is why i proposed taking small chained peptides/amino acids during training and by themselves post training.

to further answer your question on yohimbe, catecholamines and the non production of insulin while it is documented that yohimbe causes insulin spike, i believe that during/after training (intense training) catecholamines are so high that they negate the insulin response of yohimbe. i am sure of course that just sitting and doing nothing and taking yohimbe and then carbs would spike insulin higher than normal bc your not completely wrecking your body like you would while intense training, so you dont have excess catecholamines to negate insulin.

good point, it really depends on what kind of exercise you are doing, which is to say that in a fasted state, during aerobic exercise the body switches fairly quickly to preferentially burn fat. anaerobic exercise is a diffrent matter. i do not think anyone would doubt that aminos particulary bcaas before, during , and after exercises are pretty mcuh the holy grail for preserving muscle, promoting, muscle systhesis, and improving recovery.

there are a lot of studies around that demonsrate the benefit of protein or protein + carbs after exercise rather than just carbs.

This is anecdotal but when taking pre wo slin, I used pre/during wo carbs/protien. Just to keep from going hypo. I also did a pwo meal about an hour later. Recovery was pretty good.

you wont go hypo by slamming carbs/protein/aminos pre and during, it will prevent it

Right, and should get an endo insulin spike from pre wo carbs. Catecholamines also cause some insulin resistance. So chromium might be a good idea.

they will cause resistance however that is why you spike it PRE. once insulin has been spiked its done, catecholamines wont bring it down, what they will do is keep it from happening in the first place. once spiked you will be able to maintain it for a bit and flood cells with much needed energy. you of course could opt not to do this but this would only further increase odds of hypo. your blood sugar will maintain a much stable level if you have glucose consistently being fed to cells. imagine not having spike. once glycogen levels have depleted aminos are next for creating of glucose.

I'm going to do a preworkout drink with dextrose,whey and creatine monohydrate. Take bcaas and other aminos with it. Then drink carbs/protein during and aminos post. Then eat a protein/carb meal about an hour later. The chromium is to help carb uptake. If I didn't go hypo using exo slin this way...

let me know how it works out for u

Did my first wo this way today. Slammed 100 grams of carbs and 80 grams protein pre/during. Also took 10 grams creatine. Trained chest, bis and tris. Energy and strength were fine. Will see how recovery is tomorrow. Forgot to take second set of aminos till after 45 mins of cardio. Oh well probably won't hurt anything.

Piston, take this thread to Havana! LOL sorry dude we hijacked this thread big time.