Nandi...I would REALLY apreciate your help in putting two arguments to REST!

This is an argument that will never be put to rest. R-ALA does nothing in normal animals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...2&dopt;=Abstract

It improves glucose transport in insulin resistant animals and people. The proponents of its use argue that much of the human population is insulin resistant. This is due mainly to the fact that these people are obese. Most athletes aren't obese.

For CLA, there is evidence that in normal humans it promotes fat loss

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...7&dopt;=Abstract

BigDaddy:

For CLA, there are brands other than tonalin that are cheaper but have similar quality. One just needs to watch out for (1) the right amount of isomers and (2) its purity.

BTW, you probably want to check out potential negative effects of CLA before using it. There are pubmed research papers that indicate

( a ) CLA has the potential to cause problems in liver
( b ) CLA can raise insulin insensitivty.

Originally posted by Nandi12
[B]This is an argument that will never be put to rest. R-ALA does nothing in normal animals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...2&dopt;=Abstract

It improves glucose transport in insulin resistant animals and people. The proponents of its use argue that much of the human population is insulin resistant. This is due mainly to the fact that these people are obese. Most athletes aren't obese.

Does the same apply ALA? I have never been high on either supp so i haven't really researched either in depth, would it be wise just to save money and not even use ALA/r-ALA post workout?

Posted by: virtualcyber

BigDaddy:

For CLA, there are brands other than tonalin that are cheaper but have similar quality. One just needs to watch out for (1) the right amount of isomers and (2) its purity.

BTW, you probably want to check out potential negative effects of CLA before using it. There are pubmed research papers that indicate

( a ) CLA has the potential to cause problems in liver
( b ) CLA can raise insulin insensitivty.

Then why does everyone always say only Tonalin will work??? Last edited by BigDaddy on 04-03-2003 at 06:48 PM

quote:

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would it be wise just to save money and not even use ALA/r-ALA post workout?

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Unless you had a problem with glucose control (insulin resistance)that would be my recommendation.

Both ALA and r-ALA have been used to improve glucose uptake and reduce hyperglycemia in type 2 diabetes, although r-ALA is in a sense considered to be the "active ingredient".

ALA has been shown in vitro to inhibit glycogen synthesis, so if these results extend to the in vivo case, ALA would not be a good thing post workout.

What about r-ALA then? According to one study:

...chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment significantly reduced plasma insulin (17%)... Chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment elicited a 26% increase in insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis. (1)

So R-ALA is increasing glycogen synthesis here, but reducing insulin. Since insulin stimulates amino acid uptake by muscle when you consume your post workout carb/protein shake (or whatever), as well as stimulating protein synthesis and inhibiting protein breakdown, lowering insulin postworkout is a bad idea for growth. As you know, many people take insulin after a workout to enhance these effects.

Some argue, "well, lowering insulin will keep fat off." That is true, but it will also keep muscle off. I would rather employ other strategies to keep fat off that don't impair growth, like just eating clean and doing cardio. That strategy will save you some money as well.

(1) Am J Physiol 1997 Jul;273(1 Pt 1):E185-91

Differential effects of lipoic acid stereoisomers on glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant skeletal muscle.

Streeper RS, Henriksen EJ, Jacob S, Hokama JY, Fogt DL, Tritschler HJ.

Nandi

In the study you cited, if reduced insulin level was due to increased insulin sensitivity, wouldn't that be a good thing? Generally, insulin sensitivity is measured by the amount of insulin spike one gets after ingesting food: lower the spike, more insulin sensitive you are. Was the study done on diabetics?

[In any case, you have convinced me (at elitefitness.com) that r-ala does not work the way many claim it does. As you have pointed out, I think the studies that have been done on diabetic people do not apply to healthy folks.]

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Big Daddy:

The reason that people say that it must be Tonalin is because the first experiment with human beings and CLA was performed with Tonalin. The particular experiment showed that people who took Tonalin CLA was not likely to regain fat. But there is nothing special about Tonalin.

I tend to believe science over hearsay. So, according to research publications, it is t10, c12 isomers that are important. As for the purity requirement, well, this is just common sense.

quote:

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In the study you cited, if reduced insulin level was due to increased insulin sensitivity, wouldn't that be a good thing

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In states of insulin resistance, ALA does increase insulin sensitivity to glucose uptake, presumably by enhancing the translocation of the glucose transporters GLUT4 and GLUT1 toward the cell surface where they can pick up glucose and shuttle it into the cell(1).

But amino acids are transported into the cell by a different family of transporters, and amino acid transport is insulin dependent. So ALA may improve glucose uptake, but by lowering insulin it could lower amino acid uptake, as well as lessen the anabolic/anticatabolic effects of insulin.

The study I cited above was done in insulin resistant obese Zucker rats.

(1) Diabetes 2001 Jun;50(6):1464-71

The antihyperglycemic drug alpha-lipoic acid stimulates glucose uptake via both GLUT4 translocation and GLUT4 activation: potential role of p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase in GLUT4 activation.

Konrad D, Somwar R, Sweeney G, Yaworsky K, Hayashi M, Ramlal T, Klip A.

so from what i gather with r-ala, if one were on a diet, then the r-ala would be wise to shuttle glucose to muscles and blunt the insulin responce for carb meals OTHER than post workout.