using hcg during aas

testicular atrophy means te complete shut down of natural test production. clomid will restore NTR ,but hcg wont

well i should do hcg if i plan to cycle for a very long time on the short cycles just stick to clomid?

with a 12 wk cycle i would just use clomid.

I think low dose HCG usage during cycle is useful in preventing atrophy in the first place, not to sure about the benefits of using it post-cycle. During cycle, something like 500 IU twice a week sounds reasonable

so for long cycles HCG every 4 weeks at doses lower than 1000 IU per day ( for 2 or 3 days per week) maybe be beneficial, right ?

theres so many different opinion on this subject. I was thinking about doing 50mg of clomid eod through out my cycle would i have to worry about post cycle therapy doing clomid through out thanks?

clomid post cycle, not during.

Do you guys agree with this ? === Question: Some say Clomid during a cycle is a waste, is this true? Answer: Lets first examine what happens when someone is using anabaolic androgenic steroids. When the level of androgens in the body get too high, the androgen receptor becomes more highly activated, and the hypothalamus stops sending a signal to the pituitary. In short the signal tells our body to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has higher levels than normal of androgens and as long as this level is high enough clomid will not help to keep natural test production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off. The only purpose of clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen. ========

So if I understood right: 1. HCG during short cycles could do more harm than good " if you run hcg on short cycles or too late in a cycle it could cause counter-productive results.the hcg will make your body "think" its functioning correctly and the clomid will not work! " 2. HCG is beneficial on LONG cycles but with dosages at under 1000 IU per day spaced 2 or 3 times per week " hcg only mimics (pretends) NTRto avoid testicular atrophy. if you were to shut your natural test production down for a full yr , your body could shut it down permenently. hcg tricks your body into thinking it is producing testosterone and keeps them from shutting down." 3. Clomid during a cycle is a waste " When the level of androgens in the body get too high, the androgen receptor becomes more highly activated, and the hypothalamus stops sending a signal to the pituitary. In short the signal tells our body to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has higher levels than normal of androgens and as long as this level is high enough clomid will not help to keep natural test production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off. The only purpose of clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen. " 4. HCG at the end of a cycle will do more harm than good " HCG post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production. From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle to avoid testicular atrophy. " 5. We should end the cycle only with CLOMID ( not HCG ) " read post cycle clomid terapy by xcell on professionamuscle" Please critique this. I am right ? ALIN

Do you agree with recomandation I posted here ?

alin thanks for the help i'll stick to clomid post cycle that will save me a little bit of money too

Originally posted by trying2getlarge alin thanks for the help i'll stick to clomid post cycle that will save me a little bit of money too for nothing bro. I am confused now and I expect more info from vets on this board regarding the notes I gathered about HCG and CLOMID. Maybe someone can help with more info.

MikeS Moderator on professionalmuscle.com posted: Clomid has been said to have ability to product gonadropin from the pituatary to the testicles. I dont know if this is a direct response-Id think its more a product of the anti-estrogen properties. Clomid has a great affinity to the estrogen receptor in the HPTA. That will prevent shutdown from estrogen by blocking it-estrogen is the greatest factor in shutting down endogenious test levels IMO, more so the the response of the HPT axis to androgens. So by eliminating the estro HPTA shutdown, you have greatly reduced the shutdown during your cycle. I use it EOD throughout. And since I dont thing the gonadatropin is a direct response of clomid, just a result of the lack of suppression, you could also do HCG during cycle which WOULD directly send the response to the testes to make endogenious testosterone! Personally I just use clomid EOD. =====================================

yes alin your summery looks good

Swale... this is directly from Dr. John himself: quote: I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery. Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully). If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive. The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well. I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are. I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?). All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.