Testosterone keeps the arteries clean??

Come on guys with all the discussions that we've had on blood lipids and HDL someone has also got to find this interesting.

quote:

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intensifies reverse cholesterol transport and thereby exerts an anti-atherogenic rather than a pro-atherogenic effect.

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Over my head. Can any one simplilify. Good? bad?

certainly does interest me. I hope this is the case... not enough bros using gear take interest in their lipid values. I do all else that I can to improve my values, healthy diet (most of the time), lots of fiber, garlic, niacin, cardio, omega-3's.

Same here rj420, I've come to be very aware of my lipid profile so I found the fact that supraphysiological amounts of Testosterone were mentioned make's this very relevant.

Nandi, Froz, JGUNS....anyone else....

Posted by: Severed Ties

Same here rj420, I've come to be very aware of my lipid profile so I found the fact that supraphysiological amounts of testosterone were mentioned make's this very relevant.

Nandi, Froz, JGUNS....anyone else....

Except for bridging doses or low doses. i.e. 3-400mg Test/week(or less) your lipids and cholesterol values are going to be shot.
Nothing you can do about this.

The safest cycle for lipid and Chol values is a Test+Ox one, or test or Ox alone.

All other AAS have wreaked havoc on my lipid and cho values.
Diet, supplements etc.. have next to minimal effect.

Fonz

Did you want a simplified interpretation of the article, Severed Ties? I don't know enough to say this process they are describing would tip the scales away from plaque formation (atherogenesis) even though HDL levels are lower. I doubt anyone knows that yet. But basically the process they are describing works like this:

Macrophages are immune cells that adhere to the walls of blood vessels. They have the abillity to soak up cholesterol from the blood and form so called foam cells, which contribute to the formation of atherosclerotic plaque on the vessel walls. HDL particles on the other hand transport cholesterol from cells in general to the liver. When HDLs attach to extrahepatic (i.e., not liver) cells that have too much cholesterol, they absorb some of the excess cholesterol and carry it to the liver where it is excreted in the bile. The presence of SR-BI on the surface of cells is what allows HDL particles to bind to the cells, remove their cholesterol, and carry it to the liver for disposal.

When the cells in question are macrophages attached to the vessel walls, HDL attaches to the macrophages and removes their cholesterol so they can't become foam cells and contribute to plaque formation. Obviously if testosterone increases the number of SR-BI receptors on macrophages, it makes it easier for HDL particles to attach and carry away the cholesterol in the macrophages.

Make sense?

Actually Nandi the first part of your post is more what I was interested in. I keep my cycles very moderate, 500mg/week of Test is all I need so I wanted your opinion on HDL reducing yet plaque formations occurence. Which I got, your simplified explantion did clear up the areas I wasn't sure of so thanks.

Fonz so keeping my dose in the 300-400mg/week range would keep my lipid values in check? I've never really had a problem with them but after a very heavy test/winny cycle they my HDL came back at 34 I believe so I've stayed away from heavy cycles since then.

ST

Posted by: Severed Ties

Actually Nandi the first part of your post is more what I was interested in. I keep my cycles very moderate, 500mg/week of Test is all I need so I wanted your opinion on HDL reducing yet plaque formations occurence. Which I got, your simplified explantion did clear up the areas I wasn't sure of so thanks.

Fonz so keeping my dose in the 300-400mg/week range would keep my lipid values in check? I've never really had a problem with them but after a very heavy test/winny cycle they my HDL came back at 34 I believe so I've stayed away from heavy cycles since then.

ST

3-400mg/week and a good diet. Adding Niacin and garlic is also recommended.

2-3g No-Flush Niacin/day
10 000mcg Aillicin extended release/day

Then a diet low in saturated fat and high in Omega 3-6-9's.

I believe it was most likely the winny that was to blame for your low HDL. Winny is the worst drug for chol profiles by far.

Oh I definetly blame it on the winny as well, I've read plenty of stuff on just how bad it is. Considering the doses and duration of that cycle I'm suprised my HDL wasn't worse.

My dietary fat intake is very good, I only get saturated fat from animal meat, mostly chicken and turkey but I also eat flank steak a few times a week. Other than that my fat comes from 4 tbsp of olive oil and 6-8grams of EPH/DHA fish oils.

ST

Fonz- I'm surprised that you are RECOMMENDING high omega 6 and 9 FAs. True, it's the balance between these fatty acids that is important , but there is more than enough of these omega 6,9 FAs in the majority of people's diets. People need to increase their Omega 3 FAs and NOT omega 6 and 9.

I concur with buffedude.

I also thought one of the authors' name sounded familiar. Think I saw him in a movie with Ron Jeremy once

quote:

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Langer C, Gansz B, Goepfert C, Engel T, Uehara Y, von Dehn G, Jansen H, Assmann G, von Eckardstein A

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Posted by: buffedude

Fonz- I'm surprised that you are RECOMMENDING high omega 6 and 9 FAs. True, it's the balance between these fatty acids that is important , but there is more than enough of these omega 6,9 FAs in the majority of people's diets. People need to increase their Omega 3 FAs and NOT omega 6 and 9.

Well, I use a supplement called "Omega Stack" from 1fast. Its a combo of 3-6-9's.

I found omega-3 supplementation to offer les benefits than garlic+niacin supplementation.

The best combo for chol values is Garlic(aiilicin) + niacin + Guggulsterones(3% HPLC) + 25mcgs t3(Yes...T3..lol)

The T3 is added b/c it will increase the rate at which chol clearing enzymes are produced..therefore reducing total chol values.

Those 4 things(Garlic+niacin+Guggul + T3) should keep your HDL and LDL levels stable during moderate Test or Ox cycles(Or test + Ox if you want). Moderate being 3-400mg Test/week.

Using letrozole or Arimidex will make your Chol/Lipid values go south. So, the use of tamoxifen is recommended instead.(Tamoxifen will improve Chol/lipid values as its a weak estrogen)
Besides, at 3-400mg Test/week..you won't need more than 20mg Novaldex/day. Some people choose to forego the use of an E antagonist but thats entirely up to you.

Fonz

i would be very cautious or hesitant about taking 2 to 3 grams per day of niacin.....sure it is one of the most effective compounds as it decreases ldl, vldl, idl, and increases hdl but it also can cause hepatotoxicity and myopathy....both of which should be monitored, if one opts to use niacin......oral AAS should definitely be avoided if using niacin as well

No one needs to supplement Omega-6's. They are quite abundant already. Omega-6's are associated with increased risk of cardiac arrythmia and sudden death, atherosclerosis (leading to heart attack, stroke and dementia), generalized inflammatory response (including joint pain), cancer, etc. In fact, Omega-6 PUFA's (Poly-Unsaturated Fatty Acids) such as soybean oil, safflower oil, corn oil, etc. present the worst of all fats, as they dramatically increase production of arachidonic acid and bad eicosanoids.

It is not appropriate to characterize tamoxifen, or any other SERM, as a "weak estrogen". They act as estrogen antagonists at many receptors, which is where the "S" in "Selective" Estrogen Receptor Modulator came from.

I regularly see patients go well over the top of normal range for estrogen on only 100mg of Testosterone per week. I believe ALL AAS users should employ an AI during (NOT post cycle) their testosterone cycles, even if they are only taking 300mg per week. I fear the long term effects of increased estrogen.