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04/03/2019 6:52 am
If you noticed this type of thread only occurs when bigcat is involved. The facts remains I never said that progestins cause gyno in the absence of estrogen, in fact I stated estrogen was necessarry.
You explicitly stated that it could not be treated with an anti-estrogen. Anti-e's can push estrogen back below permissive values. Hence you said that progestins can cause gyno in the absence of estrogen ...
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Bigcat said that Anadrol was an estrogen, I said that it was a dht dirivative, which it is.
In this instance we are both correct. It's a DHT derivative in that its structurally most closely related to DHT. It is an estrogen in that it has next to no androgenic binding, but does directly bind and activate the estrogen receptor. Which is the definition of an estrogen ...
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I've seen many cases where preventative treatment during a progestin cycle with B6 works, if bigcat disagrees fine.
Hey, I recommend B-vitamins year round, so no skin of my back, I disagree with the fact that you present it as treatment for something specific, without anything else. In the case of gyno, a SERM will suffice in treatment. Either that or cessation of the drug.
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Bigcat seems to think that anadrol is an ideal drug to use with women trainees, I disagree with the use of anadrol in female athletes.
Ideal is a big word, its one of the better suited drugs for women. Its androgenic potential is extremely low.
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[b]Bro carefully read the entire thread and you will see where bigcat skirts issues and attempts to change the meaning of what is actually said by those who disagree with him.
Well, here is my response, your turn.
Good things come to those who weight.
The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.
04/03/2019 3:35 pm
In this instance we are both correct. It's a DHT derivative in that its structurally most closely related to DHT. It is an estrogen in that it has next to no androgenic binding, but does directly bind and activate the estrogen receptor. Which is the definition of an estrogen ..
Ideal is a big word, its one of the better suited drugs for women. Its androgenic potential is extremely low.
Oxymetholone can convert in MethyldihydroTestosterone which has good androgenic activity (maybe less than real DHT, because the 17 alkylation seem to hinder to the receptor binding). And because it does not need 5-reductase to this, methylDHT potential is important. Well really it's an AAS !
I have understand that we can suspect that the 2-hydroxymethylene group is the key of the ER binding, but I have not found a real demonstration of how does it work.
Because I do not believe in Oxymetholone direct ability to bind PR, I will search more informations about his affinity with the ER.
04/03/2019 4:28 pm
Oxymetholone can convert in Methyldihydrotestosterone which has good androgenic activity (maybe less than real DHT, because the 17 alkylation seem to hinder to the receptor binding). And because it does not need 5-reductase to this, methylDHT potential is important. Well really it's an AAS !
The hydrolyzation of the 2-hydroxymethylene group to form methyl-DHT Is negligable. I'll have to look it up again before I confirm this with any certainty, but I seem to remember a study that quantified this.
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I have understand that we can suspect that the 2-hydroxymethylene group is the key of the ER binding, but I have not found a real demonstration of how does it work.
Because I do not believe in Oxymetholone direct ability to bind PR, I will search more informations about his affinity with the ER.
Its based mostly on chemical likeness, more than structural likeness. As is often the case with steroids.
Good things come to those who weight.
The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.
04/03/2019 5:26 pm
Hey BC and Lifts, I don't think this is a competition to find out who knows more about roids use (I firmly believe that most of the sistemic effects of roids are unknown to the very guy who designed them!!!!)
So, you 2 guys always give us very useful and unvaluable information, so just make your point and avoid offending each other which is not helping anybody. Peace.
Max
04/03/2019 6:24 pm
Hey BC and Lifts, I don't think this is a competition to find out who knows more about roids use (I firmly believe that most of the sistemic effects of roids are unknown to the very guy who designed them!!!!)
You're right its not, its about conveying correct information when we do have it.
Good things come to those who weight.
The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.
04/03/2019 7:13 pm
You're right its not, its about conveying correct information when we do have it.
although I do agree with one of Lift's points - that is the posting of scientific findings without the real world use to help give insight.
And I am not saying that BC or anyone else does it here on a regular basis. Studies are good and they give us options to consider in our cycle plans. But studies are often skewed one way or the other by the studier to help prove his point. Or there are other facts we are not given.
In truth I prefer to hear from the real world use - but that is just me.
If this was all so easy a 12 year old science geek could post the best information on the boards.
04/03/2019 8:06 pm
You're right but true life experience is subject to debate too. Because we are all different, and lot of parameters are difficult to control. Sometimes real life experiences are far away the truth too.
The best is to take an interest in studies and personnal experiences.
04/03/2019 8:49 pm
for instance, we have all heard of the lucky guy who did 400mg of test a week and gained 30 lbs! One of the reason that i like this board so much is that we have a great blend of folks with real world experience as well as scientific knowledge. The key is to use critical thinking and decide what wroks for you.
Frequently, for many questions, it comes down to what works for you. We can read 30 articles detailing that cyp and enanthate are essentially the same and then find that "we" personally grow better off of cyp cycle after cycle.
jb
04/03/2019 9:31 pm
for instance, we have all heard of the lucky guy who did 400mg of test a week and gained 30 lbs! One of the reason that i like this board so much is that we have a great blend of folks with real world experience as well as scientific knowledge. The key is to use critical thinking and decide what wroks for you.Frequently, for many questions, it comes down to what works for you. We can read 30 articles detailing that cyp and enanthate are essentially the same and then find that "we" personally grow better off of cyp cycle after cycle.
jb
Amen! We are all individuals and most often need to experience with the various drugs to decide what works best for us, but it is very likely that what has worked for 10,000 other bodybuilders will work for you as well.
liftsiron is a fictional character and should be taken as such.
04/03/2019 10:03 pm
I agree that studies are part of the overall toolbox we need as lifters to get the most of what we can from training. Blended with real life experience they should show us the best way to get to our goals
04/03/2019 10:51 pm
LiftsIron was not saying galactorrhea had anything to do with gyno. I know he has a good understanding on prolactin and the role it plays with galactorrhea as I have had many discussions with him and others. If you read studies where women experience galactorrhea, you will see that they are treated with pyridoxine(B6) or bromocriptine not anti estrogens or AIs. They reason these women are treaded with bromo or b6 is because they both supress prolactin. As the suppression issue of deca and test, JGuns answer at the beginning of the thread is pretty much on.
04/03/2019 11:28 pm
LiftsIron was not saying galactorrhea had anything to do with gyno. I know he has a good understanding on prolactin and the role it plays with galactorrhea as I have had many discussions with him and others. If you read studies where women experience galactorrhea, you will see that they are treated with pyridoxine(B6) or bromocriptine not anti estrogens or AIs. They reason these women are treaded with bromo or b6 is because they both supress prolactin. As the suppression issue of deca and test, JGuns answer at the beginning of the thread is pretty much on.
In women such would be the preferred treatment because anti-estrogens are simply not an option. In men, its an entirely different scenario, and especially with the increased levels being induced. In this case we have to opt for the simplest, most convenient and fastest treatment. And since a lot of people have anti-estrogens handy, or already use them on cycle, it makes little sense to search for alternative treatments that have been proven less effective, and when used in conjunction with an anti-estrogen, completely unnecessary.
Good things come to those who weight.
The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.
05/03/2019 12:05 am
Amen! We are all individuals and most often need to experience with the various drugs to decide what works best for us, but it is very likely that what has worked for 10,000 other bodybuilders will work for you as well.
Yes, but unfortunately it isn't worth much when it comes from one person with no proof as to what he claims to have seen, making the claim to another person with more experience who has never seen it before, at all.
Most people that claim real world experience is more important make claims such as the one you just stated. And they, and you, are entirely correct. When it works for 10.000 people, odds are very good it will work for you.
Unfortunately they are never talking about 10.000 people, usually they are talking about things no one has ever seen or heard of, that there is no proof of, and 99 out of 100 times, they haven't even seen themselves but heard it from some obscure third party. Which is the case here.
I am, however much you may think otherwise, aware to the added benefit of looking at real world experience. Which is another reason to dismiss your claims, because they do not stroke with my real world experience. And when my real world experience, first hand as well as from RELIABLE sources, matches with my theoretic findings, you'll have to bring more than a personal attack to a debate to sway my opinion, or that of any educated man for that matter.
Good things come to those who weight.
The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.
05/03/2019 12:57 am
Galactorrhea, prolactin, estrogen... Some men grow tits, some men don't. It's subjective and inconclusive. If you are growing tits, then I suggest doing EVERYTHING humanly possible to stop them. I'd do anything short of drinking anti-freeze to keep from wearing a bra. My Dad has worn a copper braclet since before I was born to stop the arthritic pain in his wrist. Snake oil? Maybe, but not for him, he's been cured for 35 years...
05/03/2019 1:52 am
LiftsIron was not saying galactorrhea had anything to do with gyno. I know he has a good understanding on prolactin and the role it plays with galactorrhea as I have had many discussions with him and others. If you read studies where women experience galactorrhea, you will see that they are treated with pyridoxine(B6) or bromocriptine not anti estrogens or AIs. They reason these women are treaded with bromo or b6 is because they both supress prolactin. As the suppression issue of deca and test, JGuns answer at the beginning of the thread is pretty much on.
Do you know what kinda dosages of b6 are needed to suppress prolactin? I knew about the bromocriptine but the sides are rather nasty I hear.
Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.
SBH :)