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07/12/2018 7:25 am
Awesome thread...
Thanks for the reply...I just learned something
Disclaimer:
Information that Tazmaniac presents is totally fictitious in nature and is presented for role playing purposes only. The opinions presented do not encourage the use of illegal substances nor take the place of professional medical advice.
Death gotta be easy, cause life is hard...it'll leave you physically, mentally, and emotionally scarred~50 Cent
07/12/2018 8:22 am
several reasons, general strength for once, distribution of CNS stimulus, conective tissue adaptation...
If sprinting does indeed produce 14 times bodyweight force on impact (I don't know where you got this figure), why spend extra time working on 'general strength'? Re distribution of CNS energy, why is this important? Lifting weights has a high cns demand, which will cut into your sprint training. Why not just take time off training when you need to and focus on what matters the most i.e. the sprinting itself? As far as connective tissue adaptation is concerned, don't you think running/sprinting is a far better and more efficient way of doing this?
07/12/2018 9:12 am
"The biomechanics of running
Tom F. Novacheck
Motion Analysis Laboratory, Gillette Children �s Specialty Healthcare, Uni6ersity of Minnesota, 200 E. Uni6ersity A6e., St. Paul,
MN 55101, USA"
this one has a good review of running sprinting mechanics and ascosciated forces gathered with EMG. The 14 number was stated by charlie francis in "training for speed".
quote:
Re distribution of CNS energy, why is this important?
distribution of CNS stimulus. Meaning that you can access your CNS through different routes. This serves a few purpoces.
say you have 20 CNS points, ok?
a maximal speed work out takes 12 out of it. You cant do ANOTHER sprint work out cause youll just ware yourself out, you need another means to deplete those last 8 point. Heavy squats and bench will do that.
But most importantly its tapering. When you are for a comp the final week is tapering. At that point you cut back on volume ALOT to avoid CNS depletion and Injurie. Speed work is the first to go (you retain only a few sessions of block starts) but in order to stimulate your CNS you need to do SOMETHING, squats is one thing, but they still are draining and dangerous to the legs. So you need a prety heavy bench.
a typical taper involves a PB in bench 2-3 days before the race.
quote:
As far as connective tissue adaptation is concerned, don't you think running/sprinting is a far better and more efficient way of doing this?
sub maximal sprints have no transferance to maximal sprints and may even mess up your mechanics. If your gonna sprint, do it properly
"tiss a visitor i muttered
knokcing on my chamber door
only this and nothing more"
07/12/2018 9:51 am
LOL is all I can say to most of what you've written above. I won't bother arguing with you though as it will likely become circuitous.
Topic starter 07/12/2018 10:24 am
LOL is all I can say to most of what you've written above. I won't bother arguing with you though as it will likely become circuitous.
"any fool can critic"
Epote backed up his saying with refrences & took his time to enlighten you! why dont you do the same! hitmeback
put up or shut up!
07/12/2018 10:59 am
LOL is all I can say to most of what you've written above. I won't bother arguing with you though as it will likely become circuitous.
Triguy is right Hitmeback. Epote is not pulling this info out of his ass. I've learned a lot on strength sports and CNS conditioning from him. The least you could do is to respect his knowledge.
07/12/2018 11:51 am
Ok, first of all the reference he quoted was completely meaningless because it was not germane to the question I asked. It reminded me of Anthony Roberts who cites meaningless references to back up his arguments.
Secondly it was false and hyperbolic. I quote from the book 'Training For Speed' by Charlie Francis "The forces generated by movement around the hip joint during sprinting is estimated to be *seven* times as powerful as the action of plantar flexing of the ankle". Nowhere in the book does it say 14 times, but epote thought that he could safely double that figure because fools like triguy and GNT wouldn't know this.
Epote's quote "sub maximal sprints have no transferance to maximal sprints and may even mess up your mechanics", was straight from Charlie Francis and is a very true statement, but was completely meaningless in the context of the question I asked! This is why I found it so funny.
07/12/2018 12:28 pm
"say you have 20 CNS points, ok?
a maximal speed work out takes 12 out of it. You cant do ANOTHER sprint work out cause youll just ware yourself out, you need another means to deplete those last 8 point. Heavy squats and bench will do that."
So in other words, you're just going to wear yourself out by doing heavy squats and bench? 🙂
"But most importantly its tapering. When you are for a comp the final week is tapering. At that point you cut back on volume ALOT to avoid CNS depletion and Injurie. Speed work is the first to go (you retain only a few sessions of block starts) but in order to stimulate your CNS you need to do SOMETHING, squats is one thing, but they still are draining and dangerous to the legs. So you need a prety heavy bench".
The reason why you taper off is to reduce CNS load. Substituting sprints with more heavy weight workouts defeats this purpose as heavy weights have a high CNS demand. You may as well do more sprints.
"a typical taper involves a PB in bench 2-3 days before the race."
What bullshit! Many sprinters don't even do bench press. Moreover, the sprinters who do lift weights often don't lift heavy during the competition period or don't lift at all during this phase e.g. Maurice Greene, Ato Boldon, John Drummond etc. Just because Ben Johnson hit his PB in bench 3 days before Seoul, doesn't mean all sprinters should strive to do the same.
"sub maximal sprints have no transferance to maximal sprints and may even mess up your mechanics. If your gonna sprint, do it properly"
That's true, but it's a totally meaningless statement in the context of my question. One of the reasons sprinters do tempo work is for connective tissue adaptation. Surely a Charlie Francis sycophant like you would know this!
07/12/2018 1:33 pm
If sprinting does indeed produce 14 times bodyweight force on impact (I don't know where you got this figure), why spend extra time working on 'general strength'? Re distribution of CNS energy, why is this important? Lifting weights has a high cns demand, which will cut into your sprint training. Why not just take time off training when you need to and focus on what matters the most i.e. the sprinting itself? As far as connective tissue adaptation is concerned, don't you think running/sprinting is a far better and more efficient way of doing this?
Weighs will give you the much needed hypertrophy on the used muscles.You'll never get that with any kind of sprinting or any other form of exercise that does not have a negative portion of the lift (olympic lifts).The same for sprinting goes for throwing too.
07/12/2018 2:08 pm
quote:
Nowhere in the book does it say 14 times, but epote thought that he could safely double that figure because fools like triguy and GNT wouldn't know this.
come on man, even if you are right, i believe this particular forum has a very friendly enviroment, calling anyone a fool is not cool.
in any case, i canot pin point the excact 14xBW thing, i really thought it was in CFTS. I am certain it was quoted somewhare. Ill find it and post it. Even if that is the case though, the argument remains. No lifts can simulate or come close to sprint loads. Do you agree with that?
quote:
Ok, first of all the reference he quoted was completely meaningless because it was not germane to the question I asked. It reminded me of Anthony Roberts who cites meaningless references to back up his arguments.
that, OR, there IS a coleration and you fail to see it...And for christ sake, what does Roberts has to do with this? Jesus.
as far as the study goes, all you have to do, is see the power graphs in page 89, and then coock some prety simple (and rather crude) mathematics. They are by no means precice, merely indicative of the fact that the hip forces are in that region (or close in any case...)
regardless, if the problem is the number 14, you are correct, i cannot fully back it up at this point. Ill get to it though.
quote:
but was completely meaningless in the context of the question I asked
no man its not...i failed to properly conect the dots.
using tempos in order to build proper substructure would be (at least in my opinion) detrimental to actuall speed because sense they are not maximal, they do not corelate with actuall sprints and could posibly *hinder* mechanics if done to the volume a general fitness program would require.
check out pages 62-64 of essentials of strength training and conditioning. Some conclussions can be drawn from there. Albeight there is no paragraph that goes like this "epote was arguing that tempos alone are not enough for substructure formation because of this and that". You'll have to make same asumptioms.
quote:
So in other words, you're just going to wear yourself out by doing heavy squats and bench? 🙂
for fucks sake man, no, point is you want to stimulate your CNS as much as recovery allows you. If you sprint three times you go over that, if you sprint twice and bench your just right. I mean, that is bordeline stupid as an argument but hopefully you know what i mean.
in other words, whats the point in not just doing 100m sprints every week? Why need speed work/SE/Max str etc? Just do the most sprort specific of them all...
quote:
The reason why you taper off is to reduce CNS load. Substituting sprints with more heavy weight workouts defeats this purpose as heavy weights have a high CNS demand. You may as well do more sprints.
the reason you taper is to reduce but not eliminate CNS load. You still need some non intrucive way to stimulate the CNS.
quote:
Many sprinters don't even do bench press. Moreover, the sprinters who do lift weights often don't lift heavy during the competition period or don't lift at all during this phase e.g. Maurice Greene, Ato Boldon, John Drummond etc. Just because Ben Johnson hit his PB in bench 3 days before Seoul, doesn't mean all sprinters should strive to do the same.
and you know all these dont lift during comp because...? As far as i know, most of them DO lift high intencity low volume weights. But then again its my word vs yours, its meaningless.
point is, there is no study that says "thats the right way to do it" much of this is empirical. MY experience with myself and a few athletes i had the luck to work with is that CNS stimulation by other means during tapers works.
the whole training for a sport thing canot be siplified to 10 or 100 rules for that matter, its so individual and circumstantial that you have to go along and actually do it to see what works.
excample:
my training tollerance even while on AAS is extremely poor. I simply cannot perform more than two high intencity days/week. I've tried doing three with no lifts, three with lower volume etc. But the twice thing works FOR ME.
an fellow athlete of mine, can withstand anything you through at her. She doesnt get injured, she recovers rapidly etc.
im sorry for the next statement, but unless you have actually trained for speed (both your self and others) i cannot give more credit to your word.
im certain that you are brighter than me, and more experience, but in other fields, not speed training. Especially there, what works in paper may work, may be indiferent or problematic in practice.
"tiss a visitor i muttered
knokcing on my chamber door
only this and nothing more"
Topic starter 07/12/2018 2:54 pm
I agree with overall view, epote but their is debate on CF's theory on using BP in a taper & its tranferance in a overall program to keep CNS "finetuned" personally , have seen M Green bench!
I look at it another way (CNS dist)
look at it at training biomotor abilities(speed, max strength, flexibilty, ) that are imperative to your sport (biomotor ability points)
alot of this is anecdotal & "feel"
Speed workout 300m total (speed is first & foremost & must be done in a fresh state & each set done in a "heightened" state any dip in "cns" you stop! preferably you know your body enuff to stop b4 that dip). Its all about training the CNS to go "your fastest", if your speed drops your impriniting motor engrams to go that speed, thats why you stop b4 u even THINK you may drop in speed.
after about 280 I may feel like i have to push and im not fresh
so i stop, Now, I still need to train the other biomotor abilities inherent to sprinting (max strength), since that involves the CNS to a large extent you train it on the same day but DONT drain it.
"high levels of max strength, limit strength , abosulte strength however you wanna call it are correlated with high levels of power & speed" in GENERAL
Now you gotta be careful to train the type 2 b fibers to gain maximum power to weight ratio! you dont want hypertrophy!
7x, 14x times who cares about that number! i knew & epote know its just the fact that sprinting produces a hell of alot of force!
07/12/2018 3:42 pm
Nowhere in the book does it say 14 times, but epote thought that he could safely double that figure because fools like triguy and GNT wouldn't know this.
Name calling definitely isn't welcome here. So...knock the shit off.
Disclaimer:
Information that Tazmaniac presents is totally fictitious in nature and is presented for role playing purposes only. The opinions presented do not encourage the use of illegal substances nor take the place of professional medical advice.
Death gotta be easy, cause life is hard...it'll leave you physically, mentally, and emotionally scarred~50 Cent
07/12/2018 4:16 pm
Name calling definitely isn't welcome here. So...knock the shit off.
You must have missed that triguy referred to me as a fool in his reply above. Saying 'put up or shut up' isn't exactly polite either, yet you didn't call him out. I assure you that there will be no more name calling on my behalf.
07/12/2018 5:15 pm
Originally posted by epote
[B]come on man, even if you are right, i believe this particular forum has a very friendly enviroment, calling anyone a fool is not cool.I was just giving triguy back some of his own medicine. There will be no more name calling from me.
in any case, i canot pin point the excact 14xBW thing, i really thought it was in CFTS. I am certain it was quoted somewhare. Ill find it and post it. Even if that is the case though, the argument remains. No lifts can simulate or come close to sprint loads. Do you agree with that?
Yes, I agree. I wanted you to explain to me in greater detail, however, the benefits of weight training for a sprinter. Obviously it's not to increase force output, since so much more force can be generated by sprinting. Very often, the strength gains from weights is offset by the accompanying hypertrophy (specifically sarcoplasmic hypertrophy), which impedes acceleration & speed.
I do realize some of the potential benefits of weight training for a sprinter and, I'm playing devil's advocate somewhat, however, I just wanted you to be more clear.that, OR, there IS a coleration and you fail to see it...And for christ sake, what does Roberts has to do with this? Jesus.
I just used him as an example of someone who posts references which do not support their argument.
as far as the study goes, all you have to do, is see the power graphs in page 89, and then coock some prety simple (and rather crude) mathematics. They are by no means precice, merely indicative of the fact that the hip forces are in that region (or close in any case...)
I don't have that graph in my book. Perhaps we have different editions?
regardless, if the problem is the number 14, you are correct, i cannot fully back it up at this point. Ill get to it though.
*** Charlie Francis has stated both in 'Speed Trap' and 'Training For Speed', as well as several times on his training forum that the forces generated in the hip during sprinting are 7 times greater than that of the ankle. Whatever, it is still significant.
using tempos in order to build proper substructure would be (at least in my opinion) detrimental to actuall speed because sense they are not maximal, they do not corelate with actuall sprints and could posibly *hinder* mechanics if done to the volume a general fitness program would require.
How much force is transmitted through the achilles tendon and knees for instance during tempo running? Significantly more than lifting the heaviest of weights. Many studies have demonstrated an increase in both collagen and proteoglycan synthesis in response to repetitive loading. Our original debate, remember, was over the potential benefits of weight training for sprinters.
for fucks sake man, no, point is you want to stimulate your CNS as much as recovery allows you. If you sprint three times you go over that, if you sprint twice and bench your just right. I mean, that is bordeline stupid as an argument but hopefully you know what i mean.
You stated the following : distribution of CNS stimulus. Meaning that you can access your CNS through different routes. This serves a few purpoces.
"say you have 20 CNS points, ok? a maximal speed work out takes 12 out of it. You cant do ANOTHER sprint work out cause youll just ware yourself out"Why not do enough speed work until you hit those 20 points, if that's what you're trying to achieve instead of doing bench press for example, which is a lot less likely to help you run fast?
"in other words, whats the point in not just doing 100m sprints every week? Why need speed work/SE/Max str etc? Just do the most sprort specific of them all..."
to work on different parts of your race. Incidently, for several months in the lead up to the Sydney 2000 Olympics, Christos Tzekos apparently had Kenderis do 3 x 200m at maximum speed in the morning, then the same in the afternoon 5 days a week for 2 weeks, followed by a 5 week unload. No weights were done by Kenderis at all during the year long lead up to the Games.
This information was posted by a prominent Greek sprint coach on a few discussion forums several years ago.the reason you taper is to reduce but not eliminate CNS load. You still need some non intrucive way to stimulate the CNS.
Well why not just cut back on your speed work?
and you know all these dont lift during comp because...? As far as i know, most of them DO lift high intencity low volume weights. But then again its my word vs yours, its meaningless.
You haven't read about what HSI do have you? Looks like you've just read about the training Charlie Francis used for his athletes. HSI sprinters don't lift at all during the competitive season and in the off season they mostly do light weights for speed (compensatory acceleration type training). Unlike Charlie Francis' athletes, weights are done before speed work, rather than after it. They do have periods where they lift heavy, however. Ato Boldon has been quoted as saying "the most weight Mo and I have ever squatted was 200kg (440lbs) and the most I have bench pressed is 300lbs".
point is, there is no study that says "thats the right way to do it" much of this is empirical. MY experience with myself and a few athletes i had the luck to work with is that CNS stimulation by other means during tapers works.
I'm glad it has worked for you and your athletes.
the whole training for a sport thing canot be siplified to 10 or 100 rules for that matter, its so individual and circumstantial that you have to go along and actually do it to see what works.
Of course, but some of what you wrote above suggested that there is only one way.
excample:
my training tollerance even while on AAS is extremely poor. I simply cannot perform more than two high intencity days/week. I've tried doing three with no lifts, three with lower volume etc. But the twice thing works FOR ME.
an fellow athlete of mine, can withstand anything you through at her. She doesnt get injured, she recovers rapidly etc.
im sorry for the next statement, but unless you have actually trained for speed (both your self and others) i cannot give more credit to your word.
*** Yes, I have, however, I don't completely agree with this 'Charliesque' (Francis) statement.
Topic starter 07/12/2018 6:04 pm
Yes, I agree. I wanted you to explain to me in greater detail, however, the benefits of weight training for a sprinter. Obviously it's not to increase force output, since so much more force can be generated by sprinting. Very often, the strength gains from weights is offset by the accompanying hypertrophy (specifically sarcoplasmic hypertrophy), which impedes acceleration & speed.
I do realize some of the potential benefits of weight training for a sprinter and, I'm playing devil's advocate somewhat, however, I just wanted you to be more clear. "hitmeback"
(not if you train correctly!)
OL'rs do it all the time
Why not do enough speed work until you hit those 20 points, if that's what you're trying to achieve instead of doing bench press for example, which is a lot less likely to help you run fast?
(some days I do just do speed work if when i get to MB throws & weights , "i aint feelin it"-CNS is done")
"in other words, whats the point in not just doing 100m sprints every week? Why need speed work/SE/Max str etc? Just do the most sprort specific of them all..."
(??????"hitmeback" your kiddin right? please read CF's philosphy on his "short -long program")
to work on different parts of your race. Incidently, for several months in the lead up to the Sydney 2000 Olympics, Christos Tzekos apparently had Kenderis do 3 x 200m at maximum speed in the morning, then the same in the afternoon 5 days a week for 2 weeks, followed by a 5 week unload. No weights were done by Kenderis at all during the year long lead up to the Games.
This information was posted by a prominent Greek sprint coach on a few discussion forums several years ago
(in a small community like greece i doubt that coach is gonna give all his secrets out, its called spewing misinformation to keep the competition at bay) did christos post it or a prominernt sprint coach? NO WAY DID HE DO 3X200M, 2X A DAY FOR 5 DAYS FOR 2 WEEKS! (can you say repetitive overuse injuries!) running thois turns is the hardest on sprinters
You haven't read about what HSI do have you? Looks like you've just read about the training Charlie Francis used for his athletes. HSI sprinters don't lift at all during the competitive season and in the off season they mostly do light weights for speed (compensatory acceleration type training). Unlike Charlie Francis' athletes, weights are done before speed work, rather than after it. They do have periods where they lift heavy, however. Ato Boldon has been quoted as saying "the most weight Mo and I have ever squatted was 200kg (440lbs) and the most I have bench pressed is 300lbs".
(they lift weights in the GPP,SPP phase there at golds venice- they do train b4 speed work which is controversial)
"hitmeback" you say you have trained for speed, please post what a typical week would look like in a SPP phase
I too am leaning towards less "weights, conditioning"
In my situation, 36, weak adrenals i need to get the most out of training time. Im struggling with dropping tempo runs & just using "gen core excersises" as my tempo