Lyle McDonald's response to my theory on usenet

I think this is what we are all talking about.

I was wondering, is there a possibility that tren would also upregulate dopaminergic/noradrenergic receptors systemically, and not just neurally?

Posted by: Fonz

Big cat:

"Allow me to explain, since fonz is pulling shit out of his ass again."

My new sig at EF is going to be:

"BIG CAT HAS NEVER DONE AAS IN HIS LIFE."

I need to laugh at him some more.

Fonz

Boy your arguments are really getting more persuasive. Give me some time to dig into this new evidence and I will get back to you.

Re: just a thought

Posted by: BeLargeMini

I was wondering, is there a possibility that tren would also upregulate dopaminergic/noradrenergic receptors systemically, and not just neurally?

It is certainly possible, there is ample evidence that Testosterone upregulates adrenergic receptors in several tissues, including adipose tissue. Below are two examples, but you can find a multitude of them with a simple medline search.

It would not however be fair to say it is likely. This effect has only been ascribed to testosterone, with no evidence for any other steroid having the same ability. Also, sadly, it appears testosterone increases adrenergic receptors, but sadly seems to prefer upgrading alpha2 anti-lipolytic activity.

But since cortisol effects may be reduced by trenbolone in a roughly equal amount as with testosterone, it does call upon the question why trenbolone exhibits a higher lipolytic effect, and this is one of the plausible theories, that tren may upregulate beta-adrenergic receptors.

Collins S, Quarmby VE, French FS, Lefkowitz RJ, Caron MG.
Regulation of the beta 2-adrenergic receptor and its mRNA in the rat ventral prostate by testosterone.
FEBS Lett. 1988 Jun 6;233(1):173-6.

Xu XF, De Pergola G, Bjorntorp P.
Testosterone increases lipolysis and the number of beta-adrenoceptors in male rat adipocytes.
Endocrinology. 1991 Jan;128(1):379-82.

The clear answer to all these questions is that we will probably never know beyond conjecture since tren is a steroid used exclusively in animals except for the few studies done to see the effets of animal by products getting into the food chain. Therre are 304 abstracts reported on medline and i have read every one of them and still have many unanswered questions.

jb

when I started my tren dosing I started at 37.5 mg the first day to see how I would react(since I am also taking 18mg of concerta)(I am also taking 67mg of prop eod, with 50mg of winny ed)....the first dose was mild, simply felt a tad more energetic, when I upped the dose to 75 I noticed that 18mg of concerta had twice the effect it did prior, and not only neurally(I became more physically hyperactive). So much so that I switched ED concerta to EOD, and that seems to make it easier to tolerate. (other side effects include increase sensitivity to light, smell, sound, and touch).

I had experienced these effects prior also, without steroids while using bupropion hcl.

If tren did upregulate noradrenergic function systemically, along with what JGUNS pointed out. Would this enhance fat loss? (not considering the effects upon cortisol)

And not to hijack the thread but it still amazes me the synergy of estradiol and trenbolone in implanted cattle resulting in phenomonal growth. This study showed a huge increase in circulating igf-1 as well as muscle igf-1 mRNA as well as a 45% increase in proliferating satellite cells in muscle tissue. Whehw!

This is the basis of my "opnion" that testosterone without aromatase inhibitors should be combined with trenbolone for miximum results.

jb

==================
J Anim Sci. 2003 Apr;81(4):965-72.

Growth factor messenger RNA levels in muscle and liver of steroid-implanted and nonimplanted steers.

Estradiol & dopamine This something I have been looking at for some time now. It might explain Testosterone as a treatment for depression.

It is possible that estrogen has more of an effect on dopamine than androgens like DHT/Tren (perhaps androgens focus more on an increased NA receptor increase then DA).

There is also another study which showed Estrogen upregulated Dopamine receptors and Serotonin receptors in the striatum. (unable to locate study at the moment due to a house full of journals).

quote:

---

Mol Cell Endocrinol. 1999 Oct 25;156(1-2):151-7. Related Articles, Links

Up-regulation of D1A dopamine receptor gene transcription by estrogen.

Lee SH, Mouradian MM.

Genetic Pharmacology Unit, Experimental Therapeutics Branch, National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892-1406, USA.

Estrogen exerts complex physiologic effects on brain functions which could partly be mediated through modulation of the dopaminergic system. Transcription control of the human D1A dopamine receptor gene by estrogenic stimulation was studied in the D1A expressing neuroblastoma cell line SK-N-MC. Transient co-transfection of D1A gene promoter-CAT constructs along with expression vectors for steroid hormone receptors indicated that estrogen, but not progesterone or glucocorticoid, receptors up-regulate transcription of this gene by about 1.7-fold. Serial 5' deletion mutants of the D1A gene upstream region localized the estrogen responsive segment between nucleotides -1472 and -1342 relative to the initiator methionine. This region contains a half palindrome (TGACC) for the consensus estrogen responsive element (ERE). Additional co-transfection experiments revealed that estrogen receptors specifically activate the upstream D1A promoter but not the downstream promoter located in the intron of this gene. Consistent with transient co-transfection experiments, 17beta-estradiol treatment of SK-N-MC cells transfected with an estrogen receptor expression vector resulted in an approximately 20% increase in steady-state levels of long D1A transcripts derived from the upstream promoter but not of short transcripts originating from the intron promoter. These observations demonstrate a molecular basis for estrogen induced up-regulation of D1A gene transcription and provide a mechanism for modulation of central dopaminergic functions by this hormone.

I believe T-mag had an article about fat burning aas about a year ago,,,Tren was way up on the list,,,Your theory is valid,,,Lyle showed us what he is made of as most people who flame do,,,If he had any info that was relevant it would have been a blessing,,,Instead you're left praying for Lyle's heart to open up to some compassion,,,VDC

I think we are finding now that many of the positive effects of testosterone supplementatioon (I am speaking of TRT dosing now) actually come from estrogen. That is to say, estrogen concentrations which are too low are also deleterious to the health. I have been inching up the range I like to see E2 at toward this end. At first, I was driving it down to the 10-15pg/mL range, but now like to see it at about mid-range or a little higher. And I am very excited about the potential benefits of manipulating the 2-OH/16-A ratio of estrogen metabolites as well, as we may then be able to let estrogen go even higher without its deleterious effects.

Whenever a patient tells me he is planning on doing tren (I can't believe it has been 17 years now since I did tren!) without any aromatisables, I always tell him to add in a small amount of TE or TC to provide estrogen in what will soon become an HPTA suppressed state.

Got my I3C in and DIM and looking forward to giving that a try. was that all your idea wale or was it Dr. Nicks? I can not believe that i have missedout on that research all these years.

jb

Re: Might be likely

Posted by: BeLargeMini

when I started my tren dosing I started at 37.5 mg the first day to see how I would react(since I am also taking 18mg of concerta)(I am also taking 67mg of prop eod, with 50mg of winny ed)....the first dose was mild, simply felt a tad more energetic, when I upped the dose to 75 I noticed that 18mg of concerta had twice the effect it did prior, and not only neurally(I became more physically hyperactive). So much so that I switched ED concerta to EOD, and that seems to make it easier to tolerate. (other side effects include increase sensitivity to light, smell, sound, and touch).

---

The problem is there is no clear data on the systemic effects of methylphenidate as well, so to conclude that it works via direct beta adrenergic stimulation is a big leap.

And on a side note, I'm sticking to my rilatine, so I can adjust my dose and timing. Methylphen kills and I mean dead cold, my appetite, so I like knowing its only in my system for a few hours at a time and that I can take as much as I think I need. Just my opinion, but concerta is not doing us ADHD'ers any favours. It totally ruins all positive aspects of having ADHD.

quote:

---

If tren did upregulate noradrenergic function systemically, along with what JGUNS pointed out. Would this enhance fat loss? (not considering the effects upon cortisol)

When combined with http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=yhst-20189112917352&query=clen&.autodone=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cemproducts.com%2Fnsearch.htm l" target="_blank" rel="noopener">clenbuterol or another beta-2 agonist, sure. But if like testosterone other steroids upregulate all adrenergic receptors with more a2 upregulation than beta upregulation, then no. But all of these are very big ifs.

Posted by: jboldman

And not to hijack the thread but it still amazes me the synergy of estradiol and trenbolone in implanted cattle resulting in phenomonal growth. This study showed a huge increase in circulating igf-1 as well as muscle igf-1 mRNA as well as a 45% increase in proliferating satellite cells in muscle tissue. Whehw!

This is the basis of my "opnion" that testosterone without aromatase inhibitors should be combined with trenbolone for miximum results.

jb

==================
J Anim Sci. 2003 Apr;81(4):965-72.

Growth factor messenger RNA levels in muscle and liver of steroid-implanted and nonimplanted steers.

I will second that big time. There is nothing quite as effective as test/tren, and it appears to make pretty much every other steroid, safe for Stanozolol utterly obsolete. For cutting cycles I will sometimes add some other stuff, for specific benefits, but aside from that, test/Tren All the way.

Re: Estradiol & dopamine

Posted by: BeLargeMini

This something I have been looking at for some time now. It might explain Testosterone as a treatment for depression.

It is possible that estrogen has more of an effect on dopamine than androgens like DHT/Tren (perhaps androgens focus more on an increased NA receptor increase then DA).

There is also another study which showed Estrogen upregulated Dopamine receptors and Serotonin receptors in the striatum. (unable to locate study at the moment due to a house full of journals).

More likely it is a combination of estrogen/androgen effects. Both have been strongly linked in mood factors in different fashions. ANd that is also the most likely explanation of why testosterone is a succesful drug in this sort of therapy, while estrogen lags behind somewhat. HRT in women does not appear to have the same psychological benefits as HRT in men.

Posted by: SWALE

I think we are finding now that many of the positive effects of testosterone supplementatioon (I am speaking of TRT dosing now) actually come from estrogen. That is to say, estrogen concentrations which are too low are also deleterious to the health. I have been inching up the range I like to see E2 at toward this end. At first, I was driving it down to the 10-15pg/mL range, but now like to see it at about mid-range or a little higher. And I am very excited about the potential benefits of manipulating the 2-OH/16-A ratio of estrogen metabolites as well, as we may then be able to let estrogen go even higher without its deleterious effects.

Whenever a patient tells me he is planning on doing tren (I can't believe it has been 17 years now since I did tren!) without any aromatisables, I always tell him to add in a small amount of TE or TC to provide estrogen in what will soon become an HPTA suppressed state.

Proper. I take it one step further, I insist on testosterone as a base for all cycles for each one of my athletes. Its pure logic that both estrogen and DHT play many important roles in the effects of testosterone, this is becoming more evident, but lets not play ostrich here, its not like this is a big surprise.

The unrealistic fear of aesthetic side-effects is one of the reasons steroids are treated the way they are. They have in many ways lead to the series of health concerns involved with steroid use. This is more than evident when we see that testosterone has minimal negative side-effects as is, but each one of these bastard versions we call AAS does have serious implications. Even the very mild ones.