Lyle McDonald's response to my theory on usenet

Posted by: Fonz

The funny part is that he has never used Tren before. I never thought of testing my cortisol levels during my Tren cycles...it would have been nice to know just but how much Tren suppresses cortisol. Might get that done now to see.

Fonz

i was under the impression that Testosterone has a stronger anti glucocorticoid effect than trenbolone ?

from nandi's article on androgen action :

"Testosterone seems to be a particularly potent glucocorticoid antagonist (8,9), more so than the anabolic steroid trenbolone (10). Speculating a bit, and using some “contrarian endocrinology”, this may explain the observation commonly made by bodybuilders that trenbolone is a more effective lipolytic agent than is testosterone, since research indicates that cortisol is a predominantly lipolytic hormone:

Cortisol's effects on lipid metabolism are controversial and may involve stimulation of both lipolysis and lipogenesis...In conclusion, the present study unmistakably shows that cortisol in physiological concentrations is a potent stimulus of lipolysis and that this effect prevails equally in both femoral and abdominal adipose tissue. (11)

So by antagonizing the glucocorticoid receptor and blocking the lipolytic effects of cortisol, testosterone could possibly be losing some of its lipolytic power. It has also been proposed that glucocorticoid activity at the gene level is inhibited via androgen interference with the glucocorticoid response element in genes targeted by cortisol (11)."

(8) Danhaive PA, Rousseau GG. J Steroid Biochem 1988 Jun;29(6):575-81

(9) Danhaive PA, Rousseau GG J Steroid Biochem 1986 Feb;24(2):481-7

(10) Djurhuus CB, Gravholt CH, Nielsen S, Mengel A, Christiansen JS, Schmitz OE, Moller N.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Jul;283(1):E172-7

(11) Hickson RC, Czerwinski SM, Falduto MT, Young AP. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1990 Jun;22(3):331-40 .

Unfortunately, yet another classic case of what happens when studies simply don't reflect real-life AAS use.
I have tried every single AAS out there in order to minimize muscle loss due to extrenous cardiovacular activity.
Nothing beats Tren when it comes to preserving muscle mass. Test doesn't even come close.

Fonz

Posted by: raybravo

i was under the impression that testosterone has a stronger anti glucocorticoid effect than trenbolone ?

from nandi's article on androgen action :

"Testosterone seems to be a particularly potent glucocorticoid antagonist (8,9), more so than the anabolic steroid trenbolone (10). Speculating a bit, and using some “contrarian endocrinology”, this may explain the observation commonly made by bodybuilders that trenbolone is a more effective lipolytic agent than is testosterone, since research indicates that cortisol is a predominantly lipolytic hormone:

Cortisol's effects on lipid metabolism are controversial and may involve stimulation of both lipolysis and lipogenesis...In conclusion, the present study unmistakably shows that cortisol in physiological concentrations is a potent stimulus of lipolysis and that this effect prevails equally in both femoral and abdominal adipose tissue. (11)

So by antagonizing the glucocorticoid receptor and blocking the lipolytic effects of cortisol, testosterone could possibly be losing some of its lipolytic power. It has also been proposed that glucocorticoid activity at the gene level is inhibited via androgen interference with the glucocorticoid response element in genes targeted by cortisol (11)."

(8) Danhaive PA, Rousseau GG. J Steroid Biochem 1988 Jun;29(6):575-81

(9) Danhaive PA, Rousseau GG J Steroid Biochem 1986 Feb;24(2):481-7

(10) Djurhuus CB, Gravholt CH, Nielsen S, Mengel A, Christiansen JS, Schmitz OE, Moller N.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Jul;283(1):E172-7

(11) Hickson RC, Czerwinski SM, Falduto MT, Young AP. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1990 Jun;22(3):331-40 .

Allow me to explain, since fonz is pulling shit out of his ass again. What nandi said is correct, testosterone is a potent glucocorticoid receptor antagonist, and trenbolone has no effect in this regard whatsoever. This does not however mean that trenbolone does not exert anti-glucocorticoid effects, some evidence exists it may do so in other manners. Here are some exerts :

"TB also displayed antiglucocorticoid activity in vitro, inhibiting dexamethasone-induced transcriptional activity, and reduced adrenal gland size in vivo. " from Wilson et al, 2002

"Testosterone caused a greater (P < .05) suppression in cortisol production at 50 and 125 ng/mL than did DHT. The suppression of cortisol synthesis did not differ between Trenbolone and Testosterone or between Trenbolone and DHT. Cortisol synthesis was lowered (P < .05) by the presence of Testosterone, DHT, and Trenbolone in both ACTH-stimulated and nonstimulated cells but was only suppressed in ACTH-stimulated cells of Zeranol-treated cells." from Isaacson et all, 1993

"trenbolone acetate treatment reduced the binding capacity of sheep skeletal muscle for cortisol within 2 d of implantation." from Sharpe et al, 1986

That same study also corroborates nandi's statement :

"The skeletal muscle glucocorticoid receptor had a high affinity for the glucocorticoid triamcinolone (relative binding affinity 0.85) and cortisol (relative binding affinity 0.51) with virtually no affinity for trenbolone."

So the conclusion seems to be that trenbolone is roughly equally effective at reducing cortisol effects, but most likely through other mechanisms such as lowering affinity of GR for cortisol, reducing the size of the adrenal gland, lowering cortisol output and inhibiting transcriptional activity of glucocorticoids. Which brings us to the most important thing here : trenbolone and testosterone appear to be synergistic in reducing cortisol.

On a side note, testosterone primarily binds the HAGs (High affinity GR), so it may even be useful to addition a drug that competitively inhibits the low affinity receptors as well, such as winstrol.

Big Cat, you're such a farce its incredible.

YOU HAVE NEVER USED TREN nor TEST BEFORE...EVER.

So, please do tell me how you can sit there and extrapolate Tren's anti-gluco-corticoid activity, compared to Test's?

Hmm...

Don't take your pathetic high and mighty tone with me also, because the more i see you post, the more I laugh.

You know nothing when it comes to athletics...NOTHING.

So don't pretend like you do.

Fonz

Posted by: Big Cat

Which brings us to the most important thing here : trenbolone and testosterone appear to be synergistic in reducing cortisol.

at this point , would like to bring up something i read the other day . what do u think of this bro ?

J Anim Sci 1987 May;64(5):1428-33 Related Articles, Links

Lipogenesis in adipose tissue from ovariectomized and intact heifers immunized against estradiol and (or) implanted with trenbolone acetate.

St John LC, Ekeren PA, Crouse JD, Schanbacher BD, Smith SB.

Forty-two heifers were allotted randomly to six treatment groups: intact controls, intact heifers implanted with trenbolone acetate, ovariectomized heifers, ovariectomized heifers implanted with trenbolone acetate, intact heifers immunized against estradiol and intact heifers immunized against estradiol and implanted with trenbolone acetate.
Blood titers of estradiol-17 beta were increased over 100-fold in heifers immunized against estradiol in Freund's complete adjuvant or saline:squalene/arlacel containing Mycobacterium. Lipogenic enzyme activities and acetate incorporation into fatty acids were increased in subcutaneous adipose tissue obtained at slaughter from heifers receiving immunization or the combination of immunization and trenbolone acetate.The increased lipogenic capacity was not reflected in either cell diameter or cells per gram adipose tissue. Ovariectomy in combination with trenbolone acetate caused the lowest activities for all enzymes measured. This treatments also caused the greatest decrease in cell diameter, which resulted in the largest number of cells per gram of adipose tissue.
Trenbolone acetate alone had no detectable effect on lipogenesis in the intact heifer, but the combination of ovariectomy and trenbolone acetate caused substantial decreases in enzyme activities, in most cases a significant decrease as compared with ovariectomized heifers.
"The data suggest that trenbolone acetate is able to depress lipogenesis only when not competing with the effects of circulating estradiol . “

the aromatisation from test would hurt us ? when it comes to lipid metabolism i mean . then there's not much synnergy ?

It would reduce trens effect on reducing lipogenisis, yes. It would however prove a more than potent combination in regards to preventing muscle loss and gaining muscle mass. Since lipogenisis is supressed when (properly) dieting anyway, and most athletes (safe for those who frequently guest pose) can't truly be bothered with one of two extra pounds of fat during the off-season, I can't see this being a problem.

There is also ample evidence that the gains from trenbolone+estradiol are far superior to those of Tren Alone or estradiol alone.

It is important to note that it would do absolutely no good to measure cortisol levels for the purpose of this study. There is a fundamental difference between antagonizing a hormone at its receptor and actually lowering its serum concentration. In fact, if anything, antagonizing a hormone at its receptors is more likley to ELEVATE its concentrations, not lower same.

If you want to learn why, simply crack open a first semester Physiology book.

Agree with you swale, except if you read the studies I posted and the previous proven point that tren DOES NOT antagonize cortisol receptors, but rather lowers corstisol synthesis then we should note a decrease in serum levels, then it may be interesting. Well, that's my view anyway.

Ummmm...that comment was not directed at you, my friend.

I know bro, the way fonz puts it, it would indeed have no use whatsoever, I was just stating that if indeed trenbolone reduces glucocorticoid activity by reducing cortisol output, a test would show a reduction in cortisol.

That's why I started off by agreeing with you, just so there is no misunderstanding.

And the difference between both of you troglodytes and me, is that I would actually test that assumption out instead of simply blaberring away like another bunch of morons.

No you know why both of you are considered jokes in the realm of athletics.

Fonz

Well, who can argue with logic like that? LOL.

ok folks, here's the rules. Heated discussion is welcome but name calling is out! Argue away and present evidence or opinion but any flaming is going to get deleted. I am sure some of of would like to see this discussed in an open forum without personalities getting in the way, me among them but it will not descend any lower.

A good example of a response to a flame is swale's.

jb

Posted by: SWALE

Well, who can argue with logic like that? LOL.

Lol, well, we stand corrected don't we ?

Posted by: jboldman

ok folks, here's the rules. Heated discussion is welcome but name calling is out! Argue away and present evidence or opinion but any flaming is going to get deleted. I am sure some of of would like to see this discussed in an open forum without personalities getting in the way, me among them but it will not descend any lower.

A good example of a response to a flame is swale's.

jb

Big cat:

"Allow me to explain, since fonz is pulling shit out of his ass again."

My new sig at EF is going to be:

"BIG CAT HAS NEVER DONE AAS IN HIS LIFE."

I need to laugh at him some more.

Fonz