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Topic starter
10/03/2019 8:08 am
i took research from a guy who posted it on AM borad. im trying to do transdermal PC for a while but i cant find an upropiate solvent. can anyone help me to find a solvent like a bile acid metiond in the study that is suited for transdermal delivery.
finaly a research was published on Lipostabil, just released last july of this year.
Detergent effects of sodium deoxycholate are a major feature of an injectable phosphatidylcholine formulation used for localized fat dissolution.
Rotunda AM, Suzuki H, Moy RL, Kolodney MS.
Division of Dermatology, University of California Los Angeles, David Geffen School of Medicine, Los Angeles, California, USA.
BACKGROUND: Phosphatidylcholine injections are becoming an increasingly popular technique to treat localized fat accumulation. This formula is composed primarily of phosphatidylcholine and sodium deoxycholate, a bile salt used to solubilize the natural phospholipid in water. The mechanism through which this injectable phosphatidylcholine formulation causes localized fat reduction is unknown. OBJECTIVE: To investigate the active component and mechanism of action of an injectable phosphatidylcholine formulation in clinical use. METHODS: Cell viability and cell membrane lysis assays were performed on cell cultures and porcine skin after treatment with the phosphatidylcholine formula, isolated sodium deoxycholate, or common laboratory detergents Triton-X 100 and Empigen BB. In addition, we described the histologic changes after injection of these substances into porcine tissue. RESULTS: A significant and comparable loss of cell viability, cell membrane lysis, and disruption of fat and muscle architecture was seen in cell cultures and tissue specimens treated with the phosphatidylcholine formula and isolated sodium deoxycholate. These findings were similar to the effects produced after treatment with laboratory detergents. CONCLUSIONS: The phosphatidylcholine formula popularly used in subcutaneous injections for fat dissolution works primarily as a detergent causing nonspecific lysis of cell membranes. Our findings suggest that sodium deoxycholate is the major active component responsible for cell lysis. Detergent substances may have a role in eliminating unwanted adipose tissue. It is advised that physicians use caution until adequate safety data are available.
another study
CONTROVERSIES IN DERMATOLOGIC SURGERY
Treatment of Lower Eyelid Fat Pads Using Phosphatidylcholine: Clinical Trial and Review
Glynis Ablon, MD*, and Adam M. Rotunda, MD
Background. Injectable phosphatidylcholine, a lecithin-derived phospholipid, has been previously demonstrated to improve the appearance of infraorbital fat pad herniation. Current use internationally has led to a significant interest in this novel substance.
Objective. To evaluate the efficacy and safety of injectable phosphatidylcholine, we conducted an open-label study for the treatment of infraorbital fat pad herniation.
Methods. Patients received 0.4-mL phosphatidylcholine (50 mg/mL) injections within infraorbital fat pads every 2 weeks. Patient and physician grading of fat herniation, side effects, digital photographs, and a follow-up questionnaire was recorded.
Results. Ten of the 13 enrolled patients had three to five treatments. Improvements in fat herniation were reported in 80% and 70% of patients as graded by the physician and patients, respectively. Sixty percent of patients assessed their improvement as equal or greater than 5 points (on a 10-point fat herniation scale); however, the physician judged 40% of patients improving to this degree. Little or no response was seen in three patients. Side effects included burning, erythema, and swelling at the injection site. At follow-up averaging 9 months, 50% of patients reported persistence of benefit, 20% experienced some fading, and 30% were the nonresponders.
Conclusions. Injectable phosphatidylcholine is a novel treatment for infraorbital fat herniation that may benefit some patients who are considering blepharoplasty. Larger studies evaluating long-term safety and efficacy of phosphatidylcholine for cosmetic purposes are warranted.
10/03/2019 8:51 am
If much of the effects come from the detergent, wouldn't subQ injections right into a fat reservoir be preferable to a transdermal? i.e. what sort of effect would the detergent have on the layers of skin through which it would have to permeate before getting to the fat?
Topic starter
10/03/2019 9:33 am
PLO gel has PC in it, but i dont hear people losing weight from it.
maybe because its delivered systematicaly!!
10/03/2019 10:25 am
PLO gel has PC in it, but i dont hear people losing weight from it.maybe because its delivered systematicaly!!
Actually PC is a small amphiphillic molecule, some portion of it should get delivered locally anyway.
Good things come to those who weight.
The Big Cat is a researcher and theoreticist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.
Topic starter
10/03/2019 11:10 am
Actually PC is a small amphiphillic molecule, some portion of it should get delivered locally anyway.
well i can hombrew or make PLO gel for cheap do you think applying it on the abs, and love handels wold have any effects?
10/03/2019 12:10 pm
If much of the effects come from the detergent, wouldn't subQ injections right into a fat reservoir be preferable to a transdermal? i.e. what sort of effect would the detergent have on the layers of skin through which it would have to permeate before getting to the fat?
Yes, I wonder about that myself. i don't think a transdermal would work in this situation.
10/03/2019 1:02 pm
well i can hombrew or make PLO gel for cheap do you think applying it on the abs, and love handels wold have any effects?
What recipe are you using?
Topic starter
10/03/2019 1:51 pm
Lecithin + Isopropyl Palmitate 1:1 ratio (oil phase) .......Pluronic F127 + isopropyl alcohol+ purified water (liquid phase)
25ml of water/alcohol mix 1:1 for each 5g of Pluronic F127
im thinking to use oil phase phase + isopropyl alchol only. its hard to find the Pluronic F127 stuff
by the way most dish cleaner contain detergent. so i dont thin it may cause lysis of epidermis cells.
10/03/2019 2:24 pm
Do you mind telling me where you found the Pluronic F127? By PM if you want. The only place I found offered 55 gallon barrels. Um, yeah, just browsing thanks.
Topic starter
10/03/2019 3:18 pm
Do you mind telling me where you found the Pluronic F127? By PM if you want. The only place I found offered 55 gallon barrels. Um, yeah, just browsing thanks.
well its hard to get this stuff, but Pluronic is a surfactant. it is the same material used in window cleaners and lenses cleaning solutions.
eye wash solution include it in high percentage
10/03/2019 4:18 pm
That is good to know! So this Pluronic 17R4 works as well as F172, or at least it works to give the right consistency for PLO gel? How much of the eye wash solution did you have to use in your recipe, percentage wise, or whatever level of detail you care to share? In the ingredients, the pluronic is leasted lower than Hydrogen Peroxide which is listed at 0.006%! From what I recall of the recipe for PLO gel, you need 5g of Pluronic F127 per 25ml of water, or 37.5ml of the total. The water phase being 80% and the oil phase being 20% of the result.
CIBA Vision Solo-Care Plus With Aqualube contains Pluronic F127
Sterile aqueous solution containing sodium chloride, bis-tris propane, pluronic F127, Aqualube (cremophor) and preserved with edetate disodium dihydrate 0.025% and polyhexanide 0.0001%
10/03/2019 5:17 pm
I mix DMSO + Lecithin + Yohimbee (pharmaceutical Grade ) + Fine Ground Ephedra...doesn't have result so far.....any suggestion ?
Another day, Another challange and Opportunity
Topic starter
10/03/2019 5:55 pm
That is good to know! So this Pluronic 17R4 works as well as F172, or at least it works to give the right consistency for PLO gel? How much of the eye wash solution did you have to use in your recipe, percentage wise, or whatever level of detail you care to share? In the ingredients, the pluronic is leasted lower than Hydrogen Peroxide which is listed at 0.006%! From what I recall of the recipe for PLO gel, you need 5g of Pluronic F127 per 25ml of water, or 37.5ml of the total. The water phase being 80% and the oil phase being 20% of the result.CIBA Vision Solo-Care Plus With Aqualube contains Pluronic F127
Sterile aqueous solution containing sodium chloride, bis-tris propane, pluronic F127, Aqualube (cremophor) and preserved with edetate disodium dihydrate 0.025% and polyhexanide 0.0001%
hi bro
maybe try this better
its Microfiltered Hydrogen Peroxide 3% , Sodium Chloride 0.79% , and the rest Pluronic 17R4 Cleaning Agent
Topic starter
11/03/2019 7:38 am
more intresting stuff i found:
Many results of many studies indicate that nonionic surfactants interact not only with proteins but also with membrane phospholipids by modifying their structure and permeability. As phospholipids are chemically simple compounds, the principles of various surfactant-phospholipid interactions and the character of forces involved are fairly well known.
Surfactants generally increase the permeability of phospholipid membranes and vesicles, causing leakage of compounds with low molecular mass. The loss of ions, amino acids, etc., may result in cell damage or cell death. It is generally accepted that the increased permeability is the result of membrane disruption. Supramolecular surfactants (polyethylene glycol + dicarboxylic acid esters) as well as Triton X-100 readily disrupt egg yolk phosphatidylcholine membranes (32). An increase in permeability has been observed in many model systems: Triton X-100 and some new synthetic surfactants caused leakage from palmitoyloleoyl phosphatidylcholine/cholesterol vesicles, which are large and unilamellar (33). The concentration and aggregation state of surfactants also exert a considerable effect on their membrane-damaging capacity: monomeric Triton X-100 causes leakage of dipalmitoyl phosphatidylcholine vesicles, whereas micellar solutions result in the catastrophic rupture of membrane
Topic starter
11/03/2019 8:27 am
well i look into transdermal delivery of lecithin, its seams that phosphtidylecholin can be delivered systematicly, and localy since its amphiphilic.
Localized and systemic drug delivery. Liposomes as drug carriers. Liposomes
have shown great potential as novel drug carriers for
dermal and transdermal systems. Liposomes are microscopic
vesicles composed of membrane-like lipid layers surrounding
an aqueous compartment (23). Phospholipids most often are
used in the preparation of liposomes. Because of the amphiphilic
nature of phospholipids, when they are dispersed in aqueous
solutions they arrange in bilayers, with the fatty-acid tails
(nonpolar) located in the membrane�s interior and the polar
heads pointing outward. One of the advantages of using liposomes
as drug carriers is that both lipophilic as well as hydrophilic
drugs can be incorporated within the lipid bilayers and
aqueous compartment, respectively. They also serve as a reservoir
for the prolonged release of drugs within various skin
layers (23�28), thereby reducing the rapid elimination of drug
into the blood or lymphatic circulation (29). This quality makes
the liposome delivery system useful for treating various skin
disorders. Because they are nongreasy and nontacky, liposomal
preparations are cosmetically acceptable.
Various mechanisms have been proposed for the delivery of
drugs through the skin using liposomes as a drug carrier. In
these systems, liposomes carry a drug in dissolved form to the
skin surface, and their lipid bilayer ruptures as a result !!!!!!
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