AAS and cutting

dont't waste it, 300mg of test and 50-75mg ta eod, that is plenty to keep you in the zone.

jb

I disagree (that's a first, I believe). IMO, gear is more important while cutting than bulking. While bulking, the body is in a state of caloric surplus, catabolism is at a minimum. Obviously, the picture is quite different when cutting. A cycle during a cutter will force the body to use it's nutrients more effectively.

The reason I have mixed feelings about this is because it creates a futile cycle.

You learn in biochemistry that the cell will work to avoid this (glycolysis and gluconeogenesis will not occur at the same time in the liver, because they are opposing pathways and create a futile cycle).

On one hand, while dieting, you are in a highly catabolic state. Meanwhile, AAS create an anabolic state. Which one wins?

Certainly there are several biochemical events that necessarily precede anabolism, just like there are those for catabolism. The reason I believe AAS are far less effective on a low-cal diet is there do not exist the necessary events/factors (signals, transcripts, etc) necessary to create an optimal anabolic environment-- there is only one- activation of the androgen receptor.

Meanwhile, all lights are green for catabolism. When all lights are green for catabolism, you know they are red for anabolism. I don't think this means AAS are useless on a low-cal diet, just that they do not come close to providing the type of growth possible on a positive caloric balance...

so R2E, you think you need more anabolics than i recommended during a cutter? I have tried, btw, and found that more really did not do much, certainly not like when you are consuming enough to grow. If so, what would you recommend?

Andy, i think anabolics while dieting are essential for anyone who wants to preserve muscle mass while dieting, the object here is not to grow but to lose maximum fat while keeping maximum muscle mass. anabolics along with bcaas and good nutrition go a long way to creating a perfect cutting cycle. Too much anabolics , for me at least, have been a waste.

jb

Posted by: jboldman

so R2E, you think you need more anabolics than i recommended during a cutter? I have tried, btw, and found that more really did not do much, certainly not like when you are consuming enough to grow. If so, what would you recommend?

I do not disagree with you on your dosing recommendation, but the implication that larger doses are better suited for a bulker when you stated, "don't waste it...," in reply to Andy's original post.

The dosing protocol you've outlined looks great, IMO. If one was going to run 2 cycles, 1 consisting of 300mgs of test and the other of 600mgs, I would make the argument to use the 600mgs for a cutter and the 300mgs cycle for a bulker.

Posted by: Andy13

You learn in biochemistry that the cell will work to avoid this (glycolysis and gluconeogenesis will not occur at the same time in the liver, because they are opposing pathways and create a futile cycle).

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I think this one can be answered with anecdotal evidence, but where's the fun in that? I'm off to the gym, but plan to surf around a bit on the topic this weekend.

I see what you are getting at, that makes an assumption that you can optimally grow on 300mg and need the 600 to maintain while on a diet. I have basically eliminated bulkers from my cycles since in all except for the first one or two i ended up losing most of the weight by the time i dieted down to where i wanted to be. i have since concluded that, for me, bulking and cutting occurs at about the same dose range, the diet is a little looser on the "bulking". actually i find that during the winter months my activity level is down and my weight goes up. When spring rolls around i up the exercise and my weight gets back into target range, ~195lbs. Currently at 207 and adding in more cardio.

jb

The old time guru types Bill Phillips, Dan Duchaine and Fred Hatfield all recommended lower dose AAS during weight loss.

This is a question that i've always asked others on what they thought too. I would tend to believe that while cutting, when you are going to be more catabolic, a slightly higher dose would be needed. The problem with this is that most people switch their AAS compounds when they go from cruising or bridging or bulking to cutting and leaning up. I'm going off-topic with this, but if a guy is taking 2 grams of test to bulk up in the off-season, and switched over to tren, etc for cutting, their is going to be some inconsistencies in comparing the doses.

To answer the question at hand though, I do not think that the AAS use will be hindered by the catabolic state of intake. I think that by incorporating the AAS, especially tren, while following a hypocaloric intake of calories, you are mainly fixated on anti-catabolism rather than anabolism.

Not sure that made sense, but that's how i've always viewed it. I like JB's idea above on what to do for combating this state.

BMJ

Lower doses burn less calories (250-400 mg/testosterone/week plus 20 mg/oxandrolone/day), and you have to eat less and do more cardio, thus increasing the risk of going overtraining and getting an injury. Also it may lead you to lose muscle mass. But what do you consider a lower, a moderate and a high dose?