EPO- How the body reacts coming off it.

most research says that your body will go thru a period significantly reduced RBC production. EPO appears to make the bone marrow work overtime to produce a RBCs and post EPO cycle the cells output is significantly reduced.

Taking iron or B12 will NOT help.

good luck
fhg

I've never found that to be the case. In fact I kept flying and even though my hemocrit was down to normal (40) my hemoglobin was elevated for a long time.

After my first vit E cycle i stopped taking iron too soon and became anaemic.My Hb dropped to 10.5g/dl I resumed iron and was up to 12.5 g/dl within 3 days. M/track

Posted by: fhg43

most research says that your body will go thru a period significantly reduced RBC production. EPO appears to make the bone marrow work overtime to produce a RBCs and post EPO cycle the cells output is significantly reduced.

Taking iron or B12 will NOT help.

good luck
fhg

I have never heard say that EPO makes the bone marrow work overtime, or that post EPO cycle the cell output is significantly reduced. I know an old man who has used EPO for about 4 years and he says that he has held his hematocrit at about 53% to 55%. He tells me that he is not concerned with his bone marrow not being able to produce, since it is producing fine when he uses injected EPO.

Posted by: madtrack

After my first vit E cycle i stopped taking iron too soon and became anaemic.My Hb dropped to 10.5g/dl I resumed iron and was up to 12.5 g/dl within 3 days. M/track

You are anemic in any case... Hb of 10.5 means hematocrit about 31% or 32%, which by definition is anemia, and Hb 12.5% means hematocrit about 38%, which is also anemic, by definition. I suggest you take your hematocrit up to at least 45%.

Posted by: dario

I've never found that to be the case. In fact I kept flying and even though my hemocrit was down to normal (40) my hemoglobin was elevated for a long time.

hematocrit of 40 is not normal, it is below normal. Normal is 45%.

Re: EPO- How the body reacts coming off it.

Posted by: 55x12

Was just wondering how the HCT and body reacts when coming off EPO. After the last injection I think the HCT wouldstay at a high level for many weeks, then how from others experience much does it drop?. What can be done Post Cycle to help keep much of the gains, I know staying on IRON will help? Anyhow I am looking for feedback. I am on the E-Train and will come off in late June and was wondering what I should be looking for in terms of HCT decline afterwards. I am off EQ right now but still on TEST E. and TREN/MASTERON, I was thinking of hitting the EQ post cycle to help keep most of the EPO gains.

My friend, the Old Man Who Knows, says that the best way to keep hematocrit UP when hematocrit starts to go DOWN is to take more EPO in the amount necessary to keep it UP. (I don't know what is "the E-train" or "EQ" or Test E. or Tren/Masteron so if you will explain what these are, I will ask my friend for his comments.)

Welcome to the board Knutzen3.

E-train= EPO

EQ=Equipoise (steroid)

Test E= Testosterone Enanthate (testosterone)

Tren = Trenbolone (steroid)

masteron = Drostanolone (steroid)

W.

Knutzen my levels went up to 44% Hct after 4 weeks .The average levels for nomal people is Hb is+ 13-14 g/dl.---39-42% Hct.(the 45% level has not been accepted by the medical fraterity)This includes atheletes (approx) Hct. anything below this down to Hb 10g/dl is mild anemia. When a person is treated for anaemia( aids , cancer etc) with Vit E .The parameters are to reach a level of Hb 10-13 g/dl and not above. Obviosly there are people with levels above 42% ; but there are just as many healthy people below this level. M/track

Posted by: madtrack

Knutzen my levels went up to 44% Hct after 4 weeks .The average levels for nomal people is Hb is+ 13-14 g/dl.---39-42% Hct.(the 45% level has not been accepted by the medical fraterity)This includes atheletes (approx) Hct. anything below this down to Hb 10g/dl is mild anemia. When a person is treated for anaemia( aids , cancer etc) with Vit E .The parameters are to reach a level of Hb 10-13 g/dl and not above. Obviosly there are people with levels above 42% ; but there are just as many healthy people below this level. M/track

M/track, what your levels went up to does not "mean" anything...

How much was your hematocrit when you started, and how much EPO did you take, in how long? If you had taken more, you would have gotten it higher, if you had wanted to. The Old Man has had his hematocrit at 52% to 55% for several years, and he intends to keep it around there for the rest of his life, if possible.

According to the Reykjavik Study by O.J. Bjornsson, et. al Normal Distribution, Hematocrit, range on 2134 healthy men age 34 - 61 is as follows:
AGE 34 37 40-44 46-49 50-54 56-58 61
MEAN 45.26 44.97 45.26 45.14 45.14 45.75 44.84

(as you can see from above, the mean ("average") is very close to 45% from age 34 to 61.)

the FIFTH PERCENTILE, that is the lower 5% of the normal distribution, for these same age groups is as follows:

5th Percentile 41.61 40.33 41.11 41.01 40.29 40.09 39.58

And the UPPER NINETY FIFTH PERCENTILE, that is the upper 5% of the population, same age groups, is as follows:

95th Percentile 49.08 49.34 49.43 49.72 49.37 49.03 49.27

The FIFTIETH PERCENTILE, that is where 50% of the population falls above and 50% of the population falls below, is very close to the MEAN, which means that the average and the 50th percent look pretty much the same, is as follows:

50th Percentile 45.00 44.83 45.22 45.03 45.13 44.66 44.87

From these figures you can see that hematocrit hardly varies from age 30 to 60, and that 5% of the population has 40% or below which is DEFINED as "anemia" by the World Health Organization, and 5% of the population has above 49%.

The Old Man Who Knows calls "anemia" anything below 45% hematocrit, but he gets very worried if it is below 40%, and he considers 30% to be "horribly low"... Just imagine that it is one third LESS RED BLOOD CELLS than "average" of 45%, or even 25% less than the 40% that YOU are saying is acceptable. Red blood cells carry OXYGEN. Can you imagine how you would feel if you are in a car with the windows rolled up, and one third or one fourth of the OXYGEN is sucked out? I will describe what you would feel: dizzy... in a cloud... difficult to learn or to remember... difficult to understand... you think you are dying...

In any case, the Old Man suggests you put your desired levels way up above what doctors accept as passable, because anemia does not cause PAIN, and doctors don't really get worried unless their patient has PAIN. But anemia causes a slow degeneration of the entire body, and a great increase in degenerative disease such as cancer, etc. and a great increase in heart attacks and many other health problems, ie, anemia is an underlying cause of other diseases. It is very easy for most doctors to dismiss anemia as not so important, and they do, because it doesn't HURT.

I want to clarify that I have never used EPO. My information comes directly from the Old Man, who has used EPO and discussed EPO and anemia and senility with many persons and doctors for many years. The Old Man is not a doctor, but he teaches doctors who want to learn from him, and there are many who do.

male normal range 42-52 /Mosby's Diagnostic and Laboratory Test Reference

jb

Posted by: knutzen3

hematocrit of 40 is not normal, it is below normal. Normal is 45%.

My normal HCT then was appox 47 % B4 EPO . I went up to 52% .on EPO + ELEMENTAL Fe. When i stopped Fe (same time as EPO) my body was still making rbc ;but had no Fe to transport it so i became anaemic,when i started Fe again i started to recover, i dont think i fully recovered even at 42% even now actually .I am doing a EPO course and am battling to get my Hb up to required level,without using ridiculous doses.It can take 3 months some times.I think Aranesp is a better option as it gets Hct up quick. M/track

Posted by: madtrack

My normal HCT then was appox 47 % B4 EPO . I went up to 52% .on EPO + ELEMENTAL Fe. When i stopped Fe (same time as EPO) my body was still making rbc ;but had no Fe to transport it so i became anaemic,when i started Fe again i started to recover, i dont think i fully recovered even at 42% even now actually .I am doing a EPO course and am battling to get my Hb up to required level,without using ridiculous doses.It can take 3 months some times.I think Aranesp is a better option as it gets Hct up quick. M/track

The Old Man says you should also test for iron. Iron carries oxygen so it is good, but it also oxidizes, so too much iron is bad.

There are two tests for iron. One is the "transferrin saturation," or T-SAT test. Your score should be at least 20% and not more than 50%. The other test is "serum ferritin" (SF) test, your score should be between 200 ng/mL and not more than 800 ng/mL.

I don't know what you mean by "a ridiculous dose" of EPO, but you should take the dose that you need to get up to at least 45% hematocrit... and the Old Man likes higher for himself.

I also don't understand why it should take so long, 3 months, to get your hematocrit up, unless that is what you want to do... you can do it in less or in more time, depending on the dose and the frequency that you take the dose.

My ferriten was 20 last Jan. I started to pound the iron(inject).