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07/08/2018 3:43 pm
Why does the word obfuscation come to mind here!
jb
The way I see it, the Good Lord gave us nicotinic cholinergic receptors (as well as opioid, NMDA and other fun receptors) for a reason. It's almost sacrilegious not to utilize them. Or antagonize them in the case of NMDA receptors.
Topic starter 07/08/2018 4:35 pm
Maybe because obfuscation is a major part of any religious based argument
07/08/2018 5:35 pm
You doctors. Haven't you heard about all the benefits of nicotine?
Yeah but you have to stack it with beer or coffee.
Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.
SBH :)
07/08/2018 6:23 pm
Why does the word obfuscation come to mind here!jb
I thought it was enlightening. The Lord gave us GABA receptors too. I wonder what they're for.
Seabiscuit Hogg is a fictious internet character. It is not recommended that you receive medical advice from fictious internet characters.
SBH :)
07/08/2018 7:07 pm
uhhhh, as soon as i wake up i'll answer.
jb
I thought it was enlightening. The Lord gave us GABA receptors too. I wonder what they're for.
Topic starter 07/08/2018 8:02 pm
quote:
uhhhh, as soon as i wake up i'll answer
LOL
08/08/2018 4:20 am
This is an interesting thread, and the part that caught my attention was how the subjects levels were still nice three months following treatment.
It has been three and a half months since my cycle. I ended it abruptly due to gynocemastia issues, and was taking HCG towards the end because only then had I learned the benefits of it.
Hcg gave me an overwhelmingly large sexual appetite. Nothing had ever impacted me like that before. I must have had four or five orgasms in 24 hours and could have continued except I knew I already pushed it.
Shortly after that, following cessation of hcg, my testicles shut down harder than they did while I was on cycle, and so I just held my breath and rolled with it.
Again it has been three and a half months since, and while I can achieve an erection, my sexual drive has been considerably lower. Im 27 and I know Im getting older by the day, but I can honestly say that the cycle was a marker in my life of having lost my appetite so to speak. I have had the opportunity to sleep with a couple different women and have turned them down because relaxing at home seemed more enjoyable. go figure. It's really all quite depressing to be honest.
I wouldnt want to use hcg again just to go through the painful recovery, but would like to hear anyone's suggestion as to what steps to take in order to get my sex drive back to at least baseline.
08/08/2018 5:55 am
what do you think of dostinex post cycle guys
any answers much appreciated
08/08/2018 6:45 am
Okay, as an update to this post. I have successfully treated my own azoospermia using HCG/Clomid/Nolva. From the studies that I have seen, once HPTA is normalized post cycle, azoospermia subsides. The trick is, how quickly and efficiently can this be done? I can say that for myself after coming off a 9 month tren cycle, I was no longer azoospermic within 3 months of treatment. This is a great breakthrough considering tren's known effects on sperm.
08/08/2018 7:24 am
JGUNS--That sure is good news. I'm curious as to why you used BOTH Clomid and nolvadex, though, as they have the same actions. Convenience (had them both lying around)?
Your results are especially encouraging given the fact it takes 80-90 days to produce sperm.
ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.
08/08/2018 8:21 am
winny100--You should not use Dostinex (or bromo) unless you have proven hyperprolactinemia.
ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.
08/08/2018 9:09 am
Here's a question for SWALE and others with knowledge of the symptoms of azoospermia.
My story is, i am on a cycle of Testoserone Cyp and Nandrolone Decanoate. I have been on it for 4 weeks already.
the doses i used were : 400 mgs of deca and 200 mgs of test for first three weeks and after a lot of convincing from people on CEM, i decided to go 400 mgs of Test cyp. that makes a total of 800 mgs of AAS per week.
NOw the Question, how does one know if he has azoospermia while on a cycle.
Say if i do not see signs such as shooting blanks, or maybe cannot tell if my goods have shrunk..
If i start treating my self with 250 iu of HCG, twice week and if i did not have azoospermia to begin with, would it lead to permenant damage of Leydig cells..
Or 250 iu twice a week is too small of a dosage to cause damage to the Leydig cells, but enough to kick the balls up if they are shut down every week so that Post Cycle recovery is easier and faster.
Please help me understand. My primary concern is that i do not want to start treating myself with HCG, without proper knowledge of the symptoms while on the cycle.
Thanks guys.
08/08/2018 9:42 am
from my experience how would you re define a recovered HPTA
I personally found all though FSH and LH can come back quickly Test takes a lot longer and sperm even longer
08/08/2018 10:38 am
Okay, lots of questions here!
quote:
JGUNS--That sure is good news. I'm curious as to why you used BOTH http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=yhst-20189112917352&query=Clomi&.autodone=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cemproducts.com%2Fnsearch.htm l" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Clomid and http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=yhst-20189112917352&query=tamoxifen&.autodone=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cemproducts.com%2Fnsearch.htm l" target="_blank" rel="noopener">nolvadex, though, as they have the same actions. Convenience (had them both lying around)?
I used both http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=yhst-20189112917352&query=Clomi&.autodone=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cemproducts.com%2Fnsearch.htm l" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Clomid and nolva because I was controlling my gyno with the http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=yhst-20189112917352&query=tamoxifen&.autodone=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cemproducts.com%2Fnsearch.htm l" target="_blank" rel="noopener">nolvadex. http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=yhst-20189112917352&query=Clomi&.autodone=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cemproducts.com%2Fnsearch.htm l" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Clomid simply does not work very well for that. Also, there is some discussion as to whether or not http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=yhst-20189112917352&query=tamoxifen&.autodone=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cemproducts.com%2Fnsearch.htm l" target="_blank" rel="noopener">nolvadex is possibly better at restoration of HPTA than http://search.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/nsearch?catalog=yhst-20189112917352&query=Clomi&.autodone=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cemproducts.com%2Fnsearch.htm l" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Clomid. This is a topic that we have discussed at length here at CEM. The jury is still out. I figured that both of them together certainly could not hurt, only help. I must say that after such a long HPTA suppressing cycle, I am very pleased by my results.
quote:
NOw the Question, how does one know if he has azoospermia while on a cycle.
Say if i do not see signs such as shooting blanks, or maybe cannot tell if my goods have shrunk..
If i start treating my self with 250 iu of HCG, twice week and if i did not have azoospermia to begin with, would it lead to permenant damage of Leydig cells..
Or 250 iu twice a week is too small of a dosage to cause damage to the Leydig cells, but enough to kick the balls up if they are shut down every week so that Post Cycle recovery is easier and faster.
Please help me understand. My primary concern is that i do not want to start treating myself with HCG, without proper knowledge of the symptoms while on the cycle.
You can basically assume that you are azoospermic while on cycle. Testosterone and its derivates provide both gonadotropin suppression and androgen replacement. the doses that are typically taken by builders are more than sufficient to produce azoospermia. Feasibility and dose-finding studies using Testosterone Enanthate (TE) showed that weekly im injections of 100-200 mg TE induce azoospermia in most Caucasian men but less frequent or lower doses fail to sustain suppression.(1-4)
In addition to the amount of steroids used, time plays a factor. In studies on men using 200 MG of testosterone ED, Azoospermia occurs in 3-4 months and is then maintained consistently during ongoing treatment. This effect is reversible after stopping injections with sperm reappearing at 3 months and normal output by 6 months. (5,6)
Now, keep in mind that some studies have shown that the difference between higher levels of test administration offen result in Oligozoospermia (a reduction in the number of sperm cells). The following study attests to that:
Is high dosage testosterone an effective male contraceptive agent?
Matsumoto AM.
Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.
In male contraceptive trials, approximately half of normal men become azoospermic on high dosages of testosterone enanthate (TE), whereas the other half of men become severely oligozoospermic. To determine whether sperm function is reduced in men with severe oligozoospermia induced by TE, we studied sperm function in six normal men whose sperm counts were reduced to less than or equal to 5 X 10(6)/ml but not to azoospermia by high-dosage TE administration for 5 to 6 months and five normal men who received placebo (sesame oil) injections for the same period of time. Seminal fluid analysis and sperm function (as assessed by zona pellucida-free hamster ova penetration test, HOPT) were performed during a pretreatment period and after at least 3 months of TE or placebo treatment. HOPT was severely reduced in all six men, whose sperm counts were suppressed to severe oligozoospermia during TE (0.8 +/- 0.8% compared to 37 +/- 14% during the pretreatment period, P less than 0.05). Five men failed to penetrate any hamster ova, while the remaining man penetrated only 5% of ova during TE treatment. There were no significant changes in other seminal fluid measurements during high-dosage TE. The five men who received placebo injections did not demonstrate any significant changes in HOPT or seminal fluid analysis during the treatment period. [BOLD] In summary, we found that the fertilizing capacity of sperm is markedly diminished when sperm production is severely reduced by high-dosage TE administration. These findings suggest that male contraception may be achievable by reduction of spermatogenesis to severe oligozoospermia.[/BOLD]
In studies on Male Contraception, the addition of an estrogen or progesterone along with the steroid made azoospermia occur nearly universally. While estradiol augments testosterone-induced suppression of spermatogenesis in humans (7), the estrogenic side effects (gynecomastia, mastalgia) and modest efficacy at tolerable doses, makes estradiol-based combinations impractical for male contraception. Therefore, progesterone has been substituted for estrogen, and has proven to be very effective (8). Thus, it would be safe to assume that bodybuiders using aromatizable testosterone or derivatives are even more likely to experience a higher degree of azoospermia. Non-aromatisable androgens like nandrolone may be less effective at maintaining spermatogenic suppression.(9)
1.Cunningham GR, Silverman VE, Thornby J, et al.: The potential for an androgen male contraceptive. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 49:520-526, 1979.
2. Steinberger E, Smith KD, Rodriguez-Rigau LJ: Suppression and recovery of sperm production in men treated with testosterone enanthate for one year. A study of a possible reversible male contraceptive. Int J Androl Suppl 2:748760, 1978.
3. Swerdloff RS, Palacios A, McClure RD, et al.: Male contraception: clinical assessment of chronic administration of testosterone enanthate. Int J Androl Suppl 2:731-747, 1978.
4. Paulsen CA: Male contraceptive development: re-examination of testosterone enanthate as an effective single entity agent. In Patanelli DJ, (ed): Hormonal Control of Male Fertility. Washington, Department of Health Education and Welfare: 17-40, 1978. DHEW Publication No (NIH) 78-1097;
5.WHO Task Force on Methods for the Regulation of Male Fertility: Contraceptive efficacy of testosterone-induced azoospermia in normal men. Lancet 336:955-959, 1990.
6. WHO Task Force on Methods for the Regulation of Male Fertility: Contraceptive efficacy of testosterone-induced azoospermia and oligozoospermia in normal men. Fert Steril 65:821-9, 1996.
7. Handelsman DJ, Wishart S, Mackey MA, et al. Efficacy and safety of low dose estradiol supplementation to augment depot testosterone-induced suppression of human spermatogenesis. Annual Scientific Meeting of the Endocrine Society of Australia. Perth, 1998.
8.Schearer SB, Alvarez-Sanchez F, Anselmo J, et al.: Hormonal contraception for men. Int J Androl (suppl 2):680-712, 1978.
9.Behre HM, Kliesch S, Lemcke B, et al.: Suppression of spermatogenesis to azoospermia by combined administration of GnRH antagonist and 19-nortestosterone cannot be maintained by this non-aromatizable androgen alone. Hum Reprod 16:2570-7, 2001.
Therefore, it is pretty safe to say that if you are using steroids, you will be come at least azoospermic after several weeks of use. Length of time, drugs used, and amount will all be contributing factors. The condition is entirely reversible, and may actually be a good thing for you single guys that don't want to start a family now! You will not be able to tell if you are azoospermic from visual cues like testical size. The only way to know, is to get a home fertility test which will show if you are azoospermic.
250IU twice a week would not be enough to induce damage to leydig's cells. In fact, I have not seen evidence of LC damage even in subjects taking up to 5000IU at a time. However, I am not sure that 250 IU would even do anything anyway. You are better off using a 500IU ED protocol at the end of your cycle and the beginning of post cycle therapy.
quote:
from my experience how would you re define a recovered HPTA
It would be defined as Testosterone production being normalized. FSH and LH need to be normal for this to occur. The best way to know is to get tested. The cues you may use to determine this are sex drive, stamina, testicle size, etc. Or, if you get someone pregnant, you know!