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07/08/2018 2:24 am
I am planning on children this year and will be coming off a LONG cycle. I am going to stock up on the HCG and see how I do.
I looked up the research on this and there seems to be many studies, with very vague abstracts. Not mentioning several factors, not explaining the protocol. I wish there were more sophisticated studies.
07/08/2018 3:12 am
Nandi--This ALREADY is the "discounted" price!
Actually, this is the protocol I would use should fertility become an issue. However, I sure wouldn't use HCG at anywhere near those dosages. Patients must understand a couple of things. First, there is no guarantee they were fertile BEFORE starting hormonal supplementaion. Also, that you wouldn't even begin such a therapy until they had failed to produce a child after perhaps a year of seriously trying (the rest of the time you are just practicing, I guess). This would give the natural system plenty of time to recover. AND because it takes a couple of months to develop viable sperm, the treatment itself would be for quite a while, too.
JGUNS--just HCG will only do half the job, as both Testosterone and FSH are needed to produce sperm. In fact, if the HPTA is suppressed (even by HCG) you will not be producing FSH like you would want to.
Using GnRH would be a therapy only a highly-trained specialist should administer. Even in humans.
ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.
07/08/2018 4:02 am
And just when we think we have it figured out, along comes the wabbit. As Nandi pointed out, it seems there is not one best treatment. This study is however unique in the ones that i have read using testosterone as a adjunct to tamoxifen. So, start off with hcg and then switch to andriol and tamoxifen?
jb
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Fertil Steril. 1995 Oct;64(4):818-24. Related Articles, Links
Endocrine effects of testosterone undecanoate as a supplementary treatment to menopausal gonadotropins or tamoxifen citrate in idiopathic oligozoospermia.
Adamopoulos DA, Nicopoulou S, Kapolla N, Vassilopoulos P, Karamertzanis M, Kontogeorgos L.
Endocrine Department, Elena's Hospital, Athens, Greece.
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effects of T undecanoate given as a supplementary treatment with tamoxifen citrate (TAM) or hMG on pituitary and Leydig cell function in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia. DESIGN: A total of 48 normogonadotropic men with idiopathic oligozoospermia were allocated in to six groups (n = 8 per group) treated with placebo, 40 mg T undecanoate three times per day, 10 mg TAM two times per day, T undecanoate and TAM, 75 IU/d hMG, and T undecanoate and hMG. All groups were evaluated with standard GnRH, thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and hCG tests before and on the final day of 3 months on treatment with measurements of FSH, LH, thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH), PRL, T, E2, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and seminal analyses (at least twice each time). RESULTS: Basal and stimulated concentrations and incremental FSH and LH values showed no differences among TAM or hMG and TAM + T undecanoate or hMG + T undecanoate treated groups. Basal, stimulated, and incremental values for TSH and PRL were elevated markedly during treatment in most groups in comparison to placebo. Basal, stimulated, and incremental T and E2 values were similar in active treatment groups except that higher T concentration was found in TAM + T undecanoate as compared with T undecanoate only treated men. Finally, significant improvements were noted in important seminal parameters and particularly in the functional sperm fraction of the TAM + T undecanoate group as compared with single treatment with TAM. CONCLUSION: These results indicate that T undecanoate in combination with TAM or hMG not only had no adverse effects on pituitary and Leydig cell activity but also seemed to improve important seminal parameters and signify that androgens may be tried as a supplementary treatment to conventional regimes in idiopathic oligozoospermia.
07/08/2018 4:48 am
A couple months ago I had a meeting in Sarnia, Canada with Mr. Gord Tonnelly, who is generally considered to be the top expert on the planet on Andriol. Even he has abandoned it in favor of injectable Test Cyp as the gold standard for TRT. It is unreliably variable in its effects--even within the same patient--and is a stinker to use.
It's interesting that they found no differences in serum LH secondary to TAM administration, conflicting with other studies.
I'm trying to remember if using TAM, clomid or Arimidex also increases FSH.
This study shows that the cross reactivity of HMG and FSH is low with respect to laboratory assay.
ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.
Topic starter 07/08/2018 5:31 am
quote:
So, start off with hcg and then switch to andriol and tamoxifen?
I think that the GnRH and hCG were administered to test the HPTA: the former to test pituitary function and the latter to check testicular function, rather than as part of the treatment regimen. That aside, I guess as long as there is some testosterone present to help sperm development along, and some hMG to make the sperm in the first place, it doesn't matter whether the test is your own or exogenous. It makes sense. I wonder if there is a cutoff for test administration beyond which it starts to hurt sperm, or vice versa? In other words, could you shoot up a gram of test with your hMG and would it hurt sperm development or enhance it?
Also, your point about LH, SWALE, is particularly puzzling since "except that higher T concentration was found in TAM + T undecanoate as compared with T undecanoate only treated men".
The TAM group had higher test with do difference in LH? Is the TAM acting directly on the testes to INCREASE test production, completely contrary to what seems to happen in rats?
Or was their comment about LH referring to baseline pretreatment values in each group? I've never seen a study (until now) where TAM did not raise both LH and testosterone.
Good, thought provoking post, jb
07/08/2018 7:20 am
I'd bet SWALE would prescribe it if you didn't mind paying his "consultation fee". We should try to get him to give a discount to CEM members. (SWALE, bro, are you listening? )
I've been thinking of using his services and that would certainly help my decision!!
07/08/2018 7:52 am
Dude, my prices are already half of what everyone else charges. Besides that, I don't make a single penny on the meds (never have).
ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.
07/08/2018 8:28 am
How about adding GH to the recovery stack?
"These data suggest that GH stimulates IGF-I production from Sertoli and/or Leydig cells, which in a paracrine/autocrine manner stimulates maturation of spermatozoa with subsequent increased sperm motility."
"According to this broader thesis, hyposomatotropism accentuates Leydig cell steroidogenic failure and, conversely, progressive androgen deficiency exacerbates the decline in GH-IGF1 output in ageing."
"In man growth hormone may be an important permissive factor in Leydig cell activity during periods of changing testicular function such as occur in utero or during puberty."
Wonder if this might apply to guys coming off a steroid cycle?
How are GH levels affected in someone who is getting off a cycle and is hypogonadal?
07/08/2018 9:23 am
Actually i added the HCG at the beginning as my contribution to the protocol rather than as a result of the read!
jb
posted by nandi "I think that the GnRH and hCG were administered to test the HPTA: the former to test pituitary function and the latter to check testicular function, rather than as part of the treatment regimen. "
07/08/2018 10:23 am
And of course, a word to the wise for JG when he wants to go for a child to cut out the smoking .
jb
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Fertil Steril. 2003 Jun;79 Suppl 3:32-6. Related Articles, Links
Male smokers have a decreased success rate for in vitro fertilization and intracytoplasmic sperm injection.
Zitzmann M, Rolf C, Nordhoff V, Schrader G, Rickert-Fohring M, Gassner P, Behre HM, Greb RR, Kiesel L, Nieschlag E.
07/08/2018 10:56 am
He smokes? No kidding??!!
ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.
Topic starter 07/08/2018 11:42 am
quote:
He smokes? No kidding??!!
You doctors. Haven't you heard about all the benefits of nicotine?
07/08/2018 12:43 pm
Actually Guns and I are the rabid anti-smokers around here although jg admitted lately he has been smoking an occasional butt which i gave him hell for. Be careful, nandi is a little sensitive about the whole smoking issue!
jb
He smokes? No kidding??!!
Topic starter 07/08/2018 1:44 pm
The way I see it, the Good Lord gave us nicotinic cholinergic receptors (as well as opioid, NMDA and other fun receptors) for a reason. It's almost sacrilegious not to utilize them. Or antagonize them in the case of NMDA receptors.
07/08/2018 2:36 pm
The benefits of nicotine?
Ya, they're good for business!
ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT REPRESENT DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY MANNER.