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I'm confused....should I be using aromasin/nolvadex for PCT

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(@ozzy27)
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Ok....I was planning on using clomid 25mg ed and aromasin 25mg ed for pct. Then I read this and start to wonder...is nolva the way to go? I mean...I hate the sides I get from clomid to begin with...Read On!

But what about Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)?

I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) instead of Clomid for PCT, since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.

I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.

This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).

Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).

Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our Cycles.


   
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Visions
(@visions)
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I'll say this one thing... Where are all the studies stating that Nolva increases test production. If it did this so well we would have dozens of studies showing it but there arent any. There may be 1 study saying there was an increase but I wouldn't base my decision on 1 study when things like AI and Clomid are well documented as to how well they work at increasing Test production.

If nolva was so great I wouldn't have a huge following of guys following my protocol as alot of them used to follow the old Nolva protocol and switched and never went back... 25mg of Clomid has been shown to increase test production to normal high levels , saying you'll need 150mg is just rediculous and is just a statement thown out there with nothing to back it up.

Now do I think you'll recover if you took Nolva and Aromasin for PCT... Yes... cause I know Aromasin will increase your test level, how much help Nolva wil be , who really knows. The added benifit of using Clomid is it tells the body to make its own LH, while Nolva doesn't do this, its function is to block the receptor, if doing this actually increases LH I havn't seen the study. The real key to recovery actually starts from the beginning of the cycle when you take hCG and this prevents the testes from shutting down in the first place so they keep making test throughout the cycle... hCG mimics LH so what we are actually doing in PCT is switching to Clomid and Aromasin so that the pituitary starts making its own LH and getting to make everything on its own again.

Don't take my word for it... just ask around...

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DoubleWide
(@doublewide)
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interesting. good info from visions. nolvadex does inhibit and i havent read tons on it actually increasing or stimulating the production of test or the testicles.

*Disclaimer*: "DoubleWide" is a fictitious character with the sole purpose to entertain & theorize on the use of Anabolic Steroids for intellectual discussion. Any information or advice given out, stated, or implied by "DoubleWIde" is for entertainment purposes only & should not be considered the advocation of any illegal activity.


   
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starquest maniac
(@starquest-maniac)
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Visions is da MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boy I'm glad I came here!

DISCLAIMER: Starquest Maniac is completely fictional and not a true human being. As a matter of fact, I am a loser who has nothing better to do than imagine what life would be like if AAS was legal! Everything I say is a lie, and that's the TRUTH!! LOL!
I am a Testicle Professional
30yrs old, 6'0ft, 178lbs, 7.0% BF
PCT, so I can be breast tissue FREE!


   
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Visions
(@visions)
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Posted by: starquest maniac
Visions is da MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boy I'm glad I came here!

I'm gonna start charging... hehehe

---------------------------

Wanting to avoid negative sides?

Thinking of Testosterone Replacement Therapy, called TRT? ...

You've come to the right place for that type of questions...

----------------

Asking me where to buy or anything about purchasing steroids will first get you a warning then banning if that type of questioning continues... No exceptions! Don't even joke about it!


   
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(@gymrat)
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Ozzy, I've used a similar pct to that (with nolva) and it worked great. I've learned that both clomid and nolva should be used only when needed. I sometimes used nolva as an off cycle test booster until I read this...

Clomid & Nolvadex's Toxic Side Effects Exposed - Liver damage, Impotence, Cancer, Loss Of Vision

As far as studies on nolva vs. clomid here is a good read...

This post was modified 3 years ago by Admin

   
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w000dy
(@w000dy)
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I like to use Letro during cycle and for one of the compounds during PCT


   
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(@xhosea)
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Posted by: ironclad
I didn't think we could combine Aromasin and Nolva.I must have been thinking of Arimidex, or was it Letrosol..?
damn just confused myself now haha

lol well you sure as hell just confused me.... i always get all these damn pct drugs mixed up. i have to double check all my info all the time lol


   
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