hcg, clomid, at end of cycle?

First off the deca at that dose is worthless. As to HCG and clomid. I wouldn't use HCG post cycle. I would wait 3 weeks then run the standard clomid routine. I've never used HCG myself. Mid way through it may have some benefit though, but like I said I've never used it.

I agree. Use clomid or nolva for PCT. HCG is just used mid cycle and maybe during the last week of cycle to keep your guys the normal size. HCG's not real critical at the dosage/duration you are doing, it's just an optional thing you could use. As was mentioned, your sust dose in comparison to your deca dose/wk is really disproportionate... what is your cycle history and what are your stats/goals?

thats alot of sus bro. 500/wk works well for most

One of the most frequently asked questions on MuscleTalk is how to use Clomid and HCG correctly. (A note to Americans - when I say 'oestrogen' I mean 'estrogen' - we spell it correctly in the UK!) Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic oestrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene. Most anabolic steroids, especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost. Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses. Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or not. Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone. It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) are far more effective anti-oestrogens. Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise. Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system (see below). This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels. Clomid During A Cycle When we use anabolic steroids, the level of androgens in the body rises causing the androgen receptors to become more highly activated, and through the HPTA, a signal tells our testes to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has far higher than normal levels of androgens and, as long as this level is high enough, Clomid will not help to keep natural testosterone production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off, in theory. Some heavy androgen users, however, do advocate a small burst of Clomid mid-cycle, though it must be hard for them to say if it really of any benefit, due to the amount of gear they are using. Therefore, the only purpose of Clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen. When To Start Clomid The correct time to commence Clomid depends on the type and cycle of steroids you have been using. Different steroids have different half-lifes (indicates the time a substance diminishes in blood), and Clomid administration should be taken accordingly. As we have seen above, Clomid taken when androgen levels in our blood are still high will be a waste. It is crucial to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our Clomid therapy. However, if taken too late we could possibly lose gains. The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol, Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time. Steroid Time after last administration Length of Clomid Cycle Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks Equipoise: 17 - 21 days 3 weeks Finajet/Trenbolone: 3 days 3 weeks Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks 3 weeks Testosterone Enanthate/Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks Testosterone Propionate: 3 days 3 weeks Testosterone Suspension: 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks How To Take Clomid Clomid has a long half-life (possibly 5 days), so there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. If Sustanon has been used and Clomid is commenced 3 weeks after the last injection, I would estimate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high, we need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help, even if androgen levels are still a little high. Try 300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days. Using HCG It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly). Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy. HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production. The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia. From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to: 1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or 2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy. Doses of HCG Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes. Presentation and Administration of HCG Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing. __________________ Finalizing the Program An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below. Sample Post-cycle Plan: Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily taken from steroidology TX

good info

Thanks for that excellent post test-xtreme it is very helpful.

not a problem guys,,be safe

HCG (Generic name: Human chorionic gonadotropin) Pregnyl by Organon. 5,000 to 20,000 IU (International Units) per 10 cc vials. This drug is not a steroid but it is widely used in athletics today. HCG is a natural protein hormone secreted by the human placenta and purified form the urine of pregnant women. This hormone is not a natural male hormone but mimics the natural hormone LH (Luetinising Hormone) almost identically. This LH stimulates the production of testosterone by the testis in males. Thus HCG sends the same message and results in increased testosterone production by the testis due to HCG's effect on the leydig cells of the testis. Normally this HCG is used to treat women with certain ovarian disorders and it is used to stimulate the testis of men who may be hypogonadal. Athletes use HCG to increase the body's own natural production of testosterone which is often depressed by long term steroid use. Also when steroids are used in high dosages they can cause false signals to the hypothalamus that results in a depressed signal to the testicles. Over a period of weeks of this depressed signal the testicles ability to respond to any signal from the pituitary becomes very weak, which results in testicular atrophy. To avoid this athletes will use HCG to keep an artificial signal going to the testis and preventing testicular atrophy. When administered, HGC raises serum testosterone very quickly. A rise in testosterone firs appears in about two hours after injecting HCG. The second peak occurs about two to four days later. HCG therapy has been found to be very effective in the prevention of testicular atrophy and to use the body's own biochemical stimulating mechanisms to increase plasma testosterone level during training. Some steroid users find that they have some of their best strength and size gains while using HCG in conjunction with the steroids. This may wee be due to the facts that the body has high level of natural androgens as well as the artificial steroid hormones at that time. The optimal dosage for an athlete using HCG has never been established, but it is thought that a single shot of 1000 to 2000 IU per week will get the desired results. Cycles on the HCG should be kept down to three weeks at a time with an off cycle of at least a month in between. For example, one might use the HCG for two to three weeks in the middle of a cycle, and for two or three weeks at the end of a cycle. It has been speculated that the prolonged use of HCG could repress the body's own production of gonadotropins permanently. This is why the short cycles are the best way to go. The side effects from HCG use include gynecomastia, water retention, and an increase in sex drive, mood alterations, headaches, and high blood pressure. HCG raises androgen levels in males by up to 400% but it also raises estrogen levels dramatically as well. This is why it can cause a real case of gynecomastia if dosages get too elevated for that person. Another side effect seen from HCG use is morning sickness (nausea and vomiting). There have been no cases of overdose complications with the use of HCG nor have there been any associated carcinomas, liver or renal impairment. HCG was at one point looked at to see if it could carry the AIDS virus, due to the fact that it is biologically active, but the latest word is that this could not be possible in any way. So we see how HCG be used by athletes to avoid some of the problems associated with abruptly stopping a steroid cycle. This product is also not picked up on steroid tests, so some athletes use it to keep androgen levels high before a contest that has drug testing. HCG must be refergerated after it is mixed together, and it then has a life of about 10 weeks. It is taken intramuscularly only; this drug is often available by order of a physician if you show symptoms of hypogonadism. It is hard to find on the black market.

dont forget about clen for blocking cortisone...