A Jehovah's Witness came to my door yesterday..

i had what i thought were Jehovah's witness's come to my door once.
They started rambling on how they look at the bible from a scientific standpoint and how they research everything that it says. then they started saying how a new Godly government was going to take over.
i stopped them right there and said, oh do you mean after the apocalypse and are you speaking about the New World Order?
Then they started stumbling on their words and seemed shocked somehow.
They they start saying how Christ is going to return and then I cut them off again. I said yes, He will but that will be after the AntiChrist has been in power for 7 years.
My little sentence again sort of stopped them in their tracks.

Then they started trying to give me a pamplet and offered to come back to discuss it in the future.
Thats basically a Bait and Hook method. THey know most people will take the pamplet just to get them off their porch.

i said no thank you. it would go to waste and i would trash it.

they eventually got the hint.

next time i'll just answer the door wearing my Darth Vader mask

Posted by: r1ddl3r

I am Greek. In archaic greek, John 1.1 is like this:

"�� ���� ��� � �����, ��� � ����� ��� ���� �� ���, ���
���� ��� � ����� "

To make your job easier, the bold says, in plain english, that Word was a god, not The God. It simply gives a divine nature to him.

Can't read the quote, but here quite literally is the word for word translation of John 1.1 from koine [the language btw is "koine greek" not "archaic" greek] to English:

"In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word."

While I am not Greek, I do have a good friend who is from Greece and is fluent in 6 languages. In specifically reviewing the interlinear translation of the new testament with her, she indicated there is little resemblence between ancient koine greek and what is spoken today. Respectfully, unless you are schooled in ancient dead languages..... aramaic, hebrew, and koine greek, there is no practical significance to your lineage insofar as understanding them.

Even in the Jehovah's Witnesses interlinear translation, they do not, in the word for word translation indicate "The Word was a god", which itself is indicative. They use a small "g", "god was the Word."

While the Jehovah's Witnesses like to maintain, as you say, John "simply gives a divine nature to Him", there is not one reputable scholar who accepts that. I'll spare everyone a discussion about the anarthrous grammatical construction of "theos" (God) and how the JW's translate it inconsistently throughout the New Testament to suit their particular distortion of Christianity. However, scholars point to the fact that because John used a reverse construction "...and God was the Word" rather than "the Word was God", is indicative of John's intent to ascribe the fullest possible attributes of deity to the Word, Jesus Christ, not that He merely had a divine nature.

Which, for those who wish to get to the bottom of differences like this as I was when researching the issue, begs the question: Who translated the rather different translation (with respect to who the person of Christ is) within the Jehovah's Witnesses Watch Tower Society?

While the standard JW line is the translation committee wished to remain "anonymous" to not "take credit" for it, they're left with a credibility problem because it turns out there were 5 people on their translation committee. 4 of whom had no formal training whatsoever and the 5th was Fred Franz, first president of the Brooklyn Watch Tower Society who dropped out of theology school and had no formal training in Hebrew.

Worse still, the Watch Tower Society likes to misquote scholars to make it appear as if their translation has some acceptance outside its own walls. However a check of references (such as Dr. Julius Mantey, co-author of "A Manual of Greek Grammar", whom the Watch Tower used to quote regularly), refutes the claim. In fact, the very scholars quoted have written the Watch Tower and requested, under threat of law suit, to have their names removed as references.

Deceitful and intellectually dishonest about sums up the Watch Tower Society.

Again with respect, as to your parents, I have no doubt they are loving, sweet and kind people. Many JW's are.

Nonetheless they are misled by a religious institution who's theology dictates bible translation (rather than the other way around) and who demands blind devotion to theology as they teach it, and will not tolerate research being done outside of the confines of what they teach.

And the fact they use their distorted view of Christianity divisively in matters of family and civic duty is reprehensible. Families are torn apart over their nonsense.

And btw, yes they would greatly appreciate your regularly forwarding 10% of what you make each week to the local Kingdom Hall, thank you very much.

So, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..........

Well, koine greek is not a dead language. I was born in '78 and our former President of the Greek Democracy spoke in koine greek a couple of years ago. Koine greek (not archaic, my mistake, I am not that good in english) is a strict language, change the place of a word and the whole meaning change. So because, God was the Word and not Word was God, Jesus Christ has a devine nature. If you have read the bible, Lucifer was an archangel before he was forced out. He also has a devine nature.

As for the translation of greek "theos" (god) into Jehova in the NWT. If I can find the referances I will show you that Hebrew priests, those who where in charge of copying the bible, began changing the name of god (Jayhova) into simply God, because the 7th commandment said, "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain". They began purifing the instruments (pens and the likes) before writing. I 'll have to get back on that with the apropriate referance though. If you can find the Old testament in hebrew, you 'll see that the 4 letter word that translates to Jehova is all over the place.

Yes, the relegion of JW's is strict and every missaction carries a penalty of some kind. Yes tthey are people, that make mistakes. Yes the demand to follow the rules. BUT, as Adam had the freedom of choice, so has every JW. They CHOOSE to be a part of the organization. They CHOOSE to give time and money to that. I personaly, have CHOSEN NOT to be a part anymore. But I will stand as their defense, cause I have saw, with my own two eyes, for many years, that, beyond the dogma, beyond the rules and regulations, they are kind and warm people.

Anyway, I had a long time to talk about these things, and thanks for giving me the opportunity.

Posted by: r1ddl3r

............. So because, God was the Word and not Word was God, Jesus Christ has a devine nature. If you have read the bible, Lucifer was an archangel before he was forced out. He also has a devine nature........

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And therein lies the problem. You have not addressed the point that there is not one, not one, reputable scholar who accepts what you're saying. And I'm not even talking about what theologians think it means, I'm just talking about the people who have studied and know the languages. What you have just espoused is Jehovah's Witnesses Watch Tower Society teaching, which outside of the Watch Tower Society, has no acceptance.

This is fundamentally no different than my insisting the word blue really means what we've come to accept as the color green, simply because I have my own reasons for it. And worse still, I misquote the mods on the forum as being in support of my ideas.

I'm not implying that you are doing this intentionally, however you have been ingrained with and are merely repeating demonstrably incorrect Watch Tower teaching.

Posted by: r1ddl3r

As for the translation of greek "theos" (god) into Jehova in the NWT. If I can find the referances I will show you that Hebrew priests, those who where in charge of copying the bible, began changing the name of god (Jayhova) into simply God, because the 7th commandment said, "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain". They began purifing the instruments (pens and the likes) before writing. I 'll have to get back on that with the apropriate referance though. If you can find the Old testament in hebrew, you 'll see that the 4 letter word that translates to Jehova is all over the place.

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There is a lot to address here but suffice it to say that you are again a victim of Watch Tower propaganda, repeating the teaching found in their pamphlets on this particular subject.

In its New World Translation of the New Testament, the Watch Tower alters its translation of the words Lord (kyrios) and God (theos) into what is known as the tetragrammaton in the old testament, ONE of the names of God (YHWH, which most scholars believe was probably pronounced "Yahway" or what the JW's - and some others - pronounce as "Jehovah"). However, this is only done when the terms Lord or God are definitively speaking of God the Father. When God or Lord are a reference to Jesus Christ, the same "rule" of translation is not applied at all. They simply render them as Lord and God. That is what's known as "bias".

It was done with the deliberate intent to diminish the Deity of Jesus. And is further evidence of Watch Tower theology dictating translation, rather than translation determining theology.

Posted by: r1ddl3r

Yes, the relegion of JW's is strict and every missaction carries a penalty of some kind. Yes tthey are people, that make mistakes. Yes the demand to follow the rules. BUT, as Adam had the freedom of choice, so has every JW. They CHOOSE to be a part of the organization. They CHOOSE to give time and money to that. I personaly, have CHOSEN NOT to be a part anymore. But I will stand as their defense, cause I have saw, with my own two eyes, for many years, that, beyond the dogma, beyond the rules and regulations, they are kind and warm people.

Anyway, I had a long time to talk about these things, and thanks for giving me the opportunity. [/B]

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Possessing the character traits of being kind and warm people, or belonging to a particularly strict organization, does not mean their theology is correct. We all know kind and warm aetheists and I know some who are quite philanthropic, does that prove God does not exist?

Of course not.

Christian faith is not blind faith. It has stood the test of time for 2,000 years now because it has come down to us through historical documents including biblical texts and early church writings, and is further supported by archaeology.

While these do not constitute "proof", we nonetheless have good reasons to accept it "with faith". Whether or not one chooses to is purely a matter of choice.

The distortions of the Jehovah's Witnesses are subtle, but nonetheless present a different picture of who the person of Jesus Christ is. Any objective person who is willing to look beyond the walls of the Watch Tower Society and check references can easily make that determination.

One of the continuing threads throughout the New Testament is the Deity of Jesus Christ, who possesses 2 natures: One human, the other God. The picture painted by accepted and accurate translations is that what makes God the Father God, is the same "stuff" that makes the Holy Spirit God, and Jesus Christ God. The 3 sharing one nature.

The purpose of the Watch Tower's New World Translation is to alter the writings based on the preconceived notion that the 3 sharing one nature is beyond comprehension.

String theory in theoretical physics may or may not be beyond human comprehension. If it is beyond our grasp, does that in and of itself demonstrate it is not true?

Of course not.

And while the various Christian denominations have their differences, they all share the basic tenets of faith with some varying emphasis. None stoop to alter biblical texts or discourage research beyond the walls of their own church.

quote:

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The picture painted by accepted and accurate translations is that what makes God the Father God, is the same "stuff" that makes the Holy Spirit God, and Jesus Christ God. The 3 sharing one nature.

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First of all things, The Holy Spirit nowhere in the bible is presented as a person.
And where in the bible The Father, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit is revealed to have the same nature? Can you quote ANY part of the bible that reveals that?

Btw,

quote:

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Worse still, the Watch Tower Society likes to misquote scholars to make it appear as if their translation has some acceptance outside its own walls. However a check of references (such as Dr. Julius Mantey, co-author of "A Manual of Greek Grammar", whom the Watch Tower used to quote regularly), refutes the claim. In fact, the very scholars quoted have written the Watch Tower and requested, under threat of law suit, to have their names removed as references.

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Can I have a referance of this? The denial of the aforementioned scholars about the quotes used by the WT? A link or something would be nice.

quote:

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And while the various Christian denominations have their differences, they all share the basic tenets of faith with some varying emphasis. None stoop to alter biblical texts or discourage research beyond the walls of their own church.

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Well here in Greece the Greek Orthodox Church is preching the "dont ask questions, just do as we say, else you will burn in hell".

I will gladly undertake these questions but have a full schedule before me the next few days. I consider this topic of discussion important enough that I want to give your questions the attention they deserve.
I have notes from a study on the Holy Spirit I would like to dig up and provide you with that, in particular, I think you will find very enlightening.

i would like to congratulate both pc1 and r1ddl3r for maintaining a high level of discussion concerning an issue of a particularly volatile nature. THis is what sets this board apart. kudos to both and i look forward to further installments.

jb

I also want to thank all for being polite and not freaking out here. I enjoy reading both sides of the discussion and find it enlightening. And just for kicks whenever a new JW crew comes to my door -like once a year- I say Im Catholic and they don't come back. Im not sure why it works but it seems to. Im not Catholic but wonder why it works. if anyone can shed some light on it I would appreciate it.

Thanx,
Pooka

@Pooka

I dont think is the Catholic that makes a differance. If someone, told me, "No thanks, I am a Budist" etc etc, I would have seen no reason to bug him again in a sort period of time.

well when I said no thanx Im a Methodist they came back the next week.

???

I apologize for taking so long to get to this......

Posted by: r1ddl3r

First of all things, The Holy Spirit nowhere in the bible is presented as a person����

John 16.13: When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

While in some texts Jesus refers to the Spirit as �Whom� and as �He�, some scholars reply that in the text the Greek word for Helper is not the masculine gender and that according to the rules of grammar, the pronoun must agree with the noun in gender. But here there is no grammatical reason whatsoever to use the masculine pronoun "He" unless Jesus intends to declare that the Holy Spirit is a person.

Posted by: r1ddl3r

And where in the bible The Father, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit is revealed to have the same nature? Can you quote ANY part of the bible that reveals that?

Three qualities ascribed to God (or His "nature") in the Bible are omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.

The Holy Spirit is omniscient. 1 Corinthians 2:10-11 The Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent: Psalms 139: 7-8 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

And while the act of creation (omnipotence) is ascribed to God, the Holy Spirit is also frequently alluded to:

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Psalm 104:30 You send forth your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the earth.

What is also very significant, the Holy Spirit, specifically can be personally grieved and be lied to:

Acts 5:3-4 Peter said, �Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?�.. You have not lied to men but to God.�

So a lie to the Holy Spirit is a lie to God Himself. Christ and the apostles repeatedly describe the Holy Spirit as One who possesses divine attributes and perfections. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is deemed the unforgivable sin.

If the Holy Spirit is not God, would blasphemy against Him be regarded as unpardonable?

Paul also sites Jesus role in creation in Colossians Chapter 1 ......For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

It should be noted that if He created �all� things, He (Jesus) cannot be a creation. One of my favorite explanations for the koine greek word for �all� is: �All means all, and that�s all �all� means.�

And of course we have John 1.1, which from accepted, accredited, translations reads

John 1.1: In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God.

The "Word" is defined a few versus later as Jesus, who became flesh and walked among us.

But there�s more:

Philippians 2:6 (Jesus) who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

��.shows us the nature of Jesus. In the first part of the verse, "who, being in the form of God,", the word 'form' is translated from the Greek word 'morphe', which means 'form, or nature.' The words 'the' and 'of', which bracket 'form' are not contained in the original manuscripts. These two words were added by the translators of the manuscript. Without man's interference, the reading of this part of the verse is, "who being in nature God". This rendering is more in line with Scriptural context and teaching; and does not allow for any misunderstanding of Jesus' nature. The remainder of the verse merely states, that since His nature is God, He is equal with God.

This is why Paul says, Colossians 2:9 In Him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form

This is very different from the picture of Jesus the Jehovah's Witnesses paint. They believe He was first created by God as Michael the archangel. The "fullness" of deity in bodily form residing in an angel? This is anti-biblical:

Hebrews Chapter 1. ....as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say: "You are my son; this day I have begotten you"? Or again: "I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me"? And again, when he leads the first-born into the world, he says: "Let all the angels of God worship him." Of the angels he says: "He makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame"; but of the Son: "Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

The doctrine of the incarnation denies any change in Jesus nature at all. While the Jehovah's Witnesses point to Hebrews to indicate Jesus is a created being, this understanding contradicts other bible verses, some of which are mentioned above. The more complete understanding is that Jesus was "begotten" in humanity by the Holy Spirit in his Mother, Mary. But as God, He (Jesus) already "was in the beginning" (of creation) according to John 1.1 (contrast this with the Jehovah's Witnesses version of Jesus = angel ->man ->angel). The doctrine of the incarnation then simply states that the Word (Jesus) became flesh (not meaning it changed its nature). The Word resides in the person of Christ along with the human nature, so that Jesus has two distinct natures. The Jehovah's Witnesses like to focus on Jesus human nature... e.g. How can He be God if He hungered, thirsted, will subject His will to God the Father, etc. However, they like to discount Bible verses that also point to His deity. But this is what Jehovah's Witnesses do. They point to some Bible verses to make their point about Jesus but ignore others that contradict their viewpoint. Obviously the better approach is to consider all verses that deal with the subject matter.

Posted by: r1ddl3r

Can I have a referance of this? The denial of the aforementioned scholars about the quotes used by the WT? A link or something would be nice. [/B]

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I�m dating myself here but when I first did my research on the Jehovah�s Witnesses Brooklyn Watch Tower Society, it was prior to the big bang����.. (Internet) I was hoping to get back my personal copy of the little purple book�� the Watch Tower�s Kingdom Interlinear Translation published in, I believe 1951, wherein I have copious notes regarding footnote quotes by biblical scholars like Dr. Julius Mantey, Dr. Philip Harner et al. I loaned it to a friend who lives in another part of Massachusetts perhaps 2 years ago. Much of what I�ve written then (prior to this post) has been from memory.

What convinced me of the �intellectual dishonesty� of the Watch Tower is from an interview of Dr. Mantey conducted by Dr. Walter Martin of the Christian Research Institute who discussed the matter in detail. A friend obtained the (VHS) tape and we watched it one Saturday afternoon. It was also very convincing to my wife, who until that time, and in spite of hours spent discussing the differences in biblical translation, was still leaning towards the Jehovah�s Witnesses.

It is beyond me how anybody willing to objectively look beyond the Watch Tower would not simply dismiss it out of hand. And yet it remains today. I understand that many JW's don't know these biblical concepts and how the Watch Tower propagates a distorted version of Christianity. But many elders do it nonetheless. Somehow membership must have its rewards.

What invariably happens at about this point is that discussion with people like me is terminated at the direction of a JW elder, because I'm either Satan incarnate or am hopelessly lost in pagan trinitarian theology. I can go round after round with JW's and ask questions that simply cannot be answered within the limited bounds of their theology, and so the questions go unanswered.

Of course any weekly Bible studies with JW's are terminated along with any new friendships that were developing.

How can anyone who is striving to be a Christian live with themselves knowing their religious perspective doesn't square with the Bible itself?

Because it's cultish........because the Watch Tower Society insists on being the final arbiter for Jehovah's Witnesses on all matters of theology, that people on their own are unable to understand it.

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck.............

Posted by: r1ddl3r

Well here in Greece the Greek Orthodox Church is preching the "dont ask questions, just do as we say, else you will burn in hell". [/B]

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Yes, you�re correct. I used an overly broad brush in that statement. And in fact many horrible acts have been perpetrated in the name of religions.

I would only like to add that the scriptural snippets I�ve posted above barely scratch the surface on this topic. There is much, much more. But I hope that for a board dedicated to fitness and nutrition that occasionally dabbles in matters such as politics and religion, this is pretty good stuff to whet one�s appetite for discussion on the theology of the Jehovah�s Witnesses.