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02/06/2019 6:44 am
So here I am at home, enjoying the mid-morning hours spent on my computer/doing some schoolwork, when I see this older black gentleman walking around in a suit and tie. He had some books in his hand (really it was a large organizer stuffed with pamphlets), I knew something was about to go down at this point. A few minutes go by and then my doorbell rings. My dog starts barking (a shepard/chow mix, but he looks like a dingo), so I order him in his kennel and in he goes. I opened the door, and the gentleman says, "I see you have your dog there", I nod my head, "well, that's good, you know why?" I stare at him anxiously, "Because there's so much violence and suffering in the world today". He restates himself slightly differently, and I just kinda nod my head and go along with what he says for a little bit, I figured I'd wait until he's done with his schpiel before I give him some food for thought. So he gets to a point where he reads me some scriptures out of revelations about the end of days, where God's government will come down and take over our current governments who are corrupting the world. I say to him, "That's in the new testament correct?" Without blinking, he says, "yes, but it's also right here.. in xxx" I forget where he pointed to next, I believe daniel something, but it was in the old testament. It was another passage about the old kingdom being brought down or something to that effect. Well, I said to him after he read that the problem with that is the bible was written by mortal men, not even one but many. So how could this be valid having not been penned by God himself? His response to me was that these words were channeled through these men by God. I thought, hmmm, okay that's an interesting thought. Then I asked him, well what about the books that were written that weren't canonized? Like the dead sea scrolls, the apocrypha etc.. I said wasn't a group of mortal men that sat down and decided which books to canonize and which not to ? He basically restated himself, by saying those men weren't channeled to write it by God, only the original 40 (I think is what he said) were. So I guess those guys that wrote the other books didn't have an authorized permit to channel God.. lol. The conversation didn't stop there. I said to him.. well, I look at the bible like it's a big storybook, I said I'm sure some of it was based on shreds of truth, but as a whole it's a collection of stories. He says, "okay, well I understand what you're saying. . but look at here.. " he then qoutes me some more scriptures. He didn't get it at this point. I told him, to be honest I'm more of a man of science. I said, the bible tells us that man was born 6,000 years ago, yet science tells us there are fossilized remains of humans well in excess of that. He kinda goes down his own road at this point, asking me, "well, who is the first man that you can think of, what was his name?" I say, I don't know, the problem is nobody alive today was alive back then, so it's hard to say, but they have remains of people that date further back than 6k years. He reasks the question again, "but who can you think of that had a name". I know he wants me to say Adam, but I didn't.. so he had to say it, "well it's Adam, right?" And I say, no, it was someone else but we don't know his name. I said, you'd have to believe the story was true in order to think it was Adam. So he laughs a little bit and says, "okay, well.. I have a question for you then, and I'm going to come back in three weeks and we'll talk about it then.." I nod my head, thinking this next conversation will be even more fun, he asks me "Who did Adam worship?" This question to me was a bit ridiculous, but next time he comes I'm going to make sure I get my points across clearly so he understands where I'm coming from. He thinks he's going to convert me, I think that I'm going to make him question his own beliefs.. muahahaha !! haha, anyhow.. Oh, he did seperate where his religion (Jehovah's Witness) had a distinct advantage over the others ! He said, "There are many gods, there are other religions that have different Gods.. but only one has a name, and we know him as.." And he goes to one of his pamphlets, and points to a line reading his name " Jehovah". That's it folks, I'm a believer.. My bologna has a first name, it's o-s-c-a-r. My bologna has a last name, it's m-e-y-e-r.
Okay, so I entertained the guy's visit to my door because I could tell that he had a warm heart, so I was going to be nice to him. I'm sure he's used to doors being slammed on him all the time. Also, and more importantly, I wanted to see what his responses would be to my prodding, and things didn't go exactly as I'd liked.. he left me with the impression that he didn't understand what I was telling him really. Or that he was in a state of denial, perhaps.. don't know, we'll have to see with his next visit !!
Stay tuned folks..
- RR
" Go hard or go home !"
"Lightweight baby!"
02/06/2019 7:10 am
I find religious and ethical debates highly interesting, however in my experience these sort of guys have conditioned responses to any questions that may pose risk of creative thought.
02/06/2019 7:28 am
good story, gotta give him credit for knocking on doors, following his convictions, he probably helps some folks
like that you saw he had a kind heart, that's the message that's important
02/06/2019 7:54 am
thanks for sharing Ron... quite entertaining.
Props to you RR for not slamming the door in his face like I'm sure most do.
Hey next time you see him---ask him what happens to you if you are not one of the "144,000".
JW's are interesting cats for sure. Of course, I guess that can be said of us all.
Topic starter
02/06/2019 8:25 am
Well, I may be a meathead infidel with no religious convictions.. but I do understand the difference between kindness and hatred. I'm a firm believer in the "do unto others" mantra. Couple that with an ability to read people rather well, I could tell from the beginning that he was a kind soul and that he only wanted an ear to preach to. Which is fine, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, it just so happens that I don't share them.
Don't get me wrong, I will cut off those traveling magazine peddling scam artists and tell them no thanks as I shut the door in their face ! Those people deserve it though, they're soliciting goods and want my money. This gentleman just wanted a set of ears, no big deal to me.
- RR
" Go hard or go home !"
"Lightweight baby!"
02/06/2019 8:55 am
In the past I reseached the JW belief system and the Brooklyn Watchtower Bible Tract Society in detail as my wife began studying with them, and in short time, I could tell what they were teaching had some distinct differences from what other major Christian denominations were teaching.
In comparison with other major denominations (Catholic, Baptist, Episcopal, Lutheran, etc.) the fundamental difference is in who the person of Jesus is. The major denominations accept that Jesus has 2 natures, one human and the other - God. JW's are fond of saying the word "trinity" appears nowhere in the Bible, and they are correct about that. Furthermore they can quickly point to verses in the NT that speak to Jesus human frailties, that he hungered, thirsted, grew tired, etc., and so how could He be God Almighty. They believe that through "reasoning" they can make the case that prior to His human incarnation, Jesus was Michael the archangel in heaven. The major Christian denominations on the other hand can point to verses that demonstrate that Jesus was not a created (lesser) being, that in His divine nature, he is God in the full sense that both the Father and the Holy Spirit are. The contradiction is obvious, if Jesus pre-dated creation, if He in fact created, He cannot be that which was a creation.
The problem is that JW's become intellectually dishonest about the whole debate. They have a different translation of the New Testament in several key places that speak to the deity of Christ. For example, John 1.1, in modern accepted translations reads: In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. "The beginning"in koine greek, (en arche) is the same exact wording as in the koine greek translation of Genesis 1.1 account of the creation, and is generally held to mean that John, in writing about Jesus, began by saying that when God created the universe Jesus was already in existence.... that he pre-dated creation. Jesus is "The Word" as defined in the verses that follow, when the Word became flesh and walked among us. There's no dispute there. But back to John 1.1, the JW's "New World Translation" reads : In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the word was a god". A subtle but distinct difference, meant to diminish Jesus from being God and sharing of the same divine nature as God the Father.
To understand who is right, one only needs to look to the original koine greek scripture to understand each word and why the JW's translation is different: Ho theos...... literally "The God". In the first part of of John 1.1 "The Word was with God" is actually in word for word koine greek "The Word was with The God". But in the latter half when John says ".... and the Word was God"., the anarthrous use of the noun "God" appears without the corresponding "The". The JW's take that to mean something different, otherwise why wouldn't John have employed the definite article "The" (ho). The JW's also conveniently insert the word "a" before God, it is not there in the original greek text.
On the surface it would appear there is some logic to their argument. Until that is, one researches the new testament and finds that the JW's in literally dozens of other instances correctly translate the anarthrous theos ("God" without the corresponding "The") as being God the Father, that is Jehovah, even though Theos is employed without the corresponding "The" (ho). The JW's then, are inconsistent in applying their own reasoning. To say nothing of the fact that no one with formal training in koine greek supports the "rule" of translation created by the Watch Tower Society.
What's worse, they will oftentimes cite the work of several biblical scholars to make it seem as if their translation has some support outside of the Watch Tower Society. I possess a copy of their "Kingdom Interlinear Translation" that shows the word for word translation of the New Testament from koine greek to english, and in a footnote to John 1.1 they site the work of one Doctor Julius Mantey, co-author of "Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament". Interestingly, I watched a videotape produced by the Christian Research Institute that featured an interview with Dr. Mantey as conducted by Dr. Walter Martin, and Mantey flat out refutes the translation used by the Watch Tower Society. He wrote them a letter saying their translation of Jesus being a lesser deity "a god" ran against the grain of the theme of the entire new testament where Jesus deity, as sharing the same divine nature as God the Father, is the prevailing theme of the writings...... and asked he be taken out of their footnote reference. And in fact, neither does Metzger, Harner, nor any of the other scholars whom the Watch Tower claims as being in support of their translation, actually support it.
This begs the question then, who actually "translated" the New World Translation the Watch Tower uses? Ask that of a JW and the pat answer is, the New World Bible Translation Committee never published their names because they didn't want to take any personal credit, and rather wanted Jehovah to receive the credit. Except that at one point, the Watch Tower did accidently release their names. It turns out that it was one of their presidents in the 1950's, Fred Franz, who himself possessed no formal training in Hebrew, along with I believe it was 5 other individuals who had no formal training whatsoever in Hebrew, Koine Greek, nor Aramaic.
Now whether or not one wants to accept the testimony presented in the New Testament is the subject for different discussion altogether. But in terms of the validity of the theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Brooklyn Watch Tower Society, they have none. Rather than allowing their theology to develop from their translated texts, they do it in reverse...... subtly altering translation to fit their preconceived theology.
Present these facts to a JW who comes knocking on your door, or to an elder of your local Kingdom Hall and you will simply be dismissed out of hand as someone who is eternally lost, as someone who has read anti-JW propaganda written by religious pagan trinitarians. You will be black-listed, they will no longer knock on your door, and any Bible "Studies" you have been engaging in with them will end abruptly. My wife, just for example, had developed friendships with 3 women who were coming to our house for weekly bible "studies". One evening, these women sent 2 elders from the local kingdom hall to discuss these issues with me. I methodically went through a presentation beginning with the analysis of John 1.1 and focusing on the verses that speak of the deity of both Christ and the Holy Spirit. They had no answers. They're not accustomed to debating people who know their way around the Bible, as I did then. One of them stood up, and proclaimed the session wasn't going to yield any fruit and they left. Unfortunately these elders forbid the 3 women from speaking with my wife from that point on.
The fall back position of retreat for JW's goes something like "Well, Jesus said you will know my true disciples by their fruits", meaning their good works and deeds. They are quick to say "Well, have the Catholics, Episcopals, Baptists, or Lutherans come knocking on your door to bring you the good news of God's plan of salvation to you" ? One can only reply, "Where is it written in the Bible that going door to door to spread demonstrably false doctrine constitutes a good work in God's eye"?
Many JW's are nice, kind people who mean well and are not aware of the deception. Others, some elders, are aware and either don't care or don't wish to relenquish their position and standing in their parish. They may even believe they are one of the choosen 144,000 who will enjoy an afterlife with Jehovah in heaven.
The problem with all of this is that it goes way beyond a theological debate for purely debate's sake. The JW's are truly somewhat of a cult. While they will flat out scoff at the insinuation, if they manage to get their hooks into your spouse or family member, you will start to lose that loved one. They don't celebrate Christmas, will not salute the flag nor pledge allegiance to it, will not serve in the armed forces, will not celebrate birthdays, and will not accept blood transfusions nor authorize one for a family member. Furthermore they will tell their members that if the spouse of a JW rejects their theology, the husband and wife are "unequally yolked". And they will over time even encourage separation and divorce.
It is a divide and conquor type of of religious cult, even if they seem nice and kind on the surface. Members are given quota's of numbers of doors they must knock on to at least try to establish contact and set up Bible Studies in order to work the conversion process.
Don't be fooled, any of you. If anyone would like specific references I would be happy to provide them.
Be well.
PC1
"You still got the tools, but they're different" (Angelo Dundee => Muhammad Ali)
6'4"
242 lbs.
leaning out a bit
"One guy thinks he can, another guy thinks he can't. Both are right. Which one are you son?" (Nike commercial football coach)
02/06/2019 9:14 am
I'm with you Ron, I am more of a scientist. if that "magic" was here once before, where is it now. how come I haven't heard of anyone parting any seas lately?? the only thing that happens now for 40 days and 40 nights is josh hartnett swears to be celebit. I had two girls come to my door in NY preaching about their church. after they gave their little speach, I stared blankly at them and then began speaking german. it's amazing how little americans now about other languages!!
hab
02/06/2019 9:31 am
first I know many think of JW's as a cult. Anyone and every 1 is able to come to the kingdom hall to see there is no purple cool aid ect ect. Truthfully the main intent for out preaching work is that Jesus commanded that we preach to those of all the nations. So we do that in over 230+ lands worldwide. We certainly do not want to convert anyone, but do try to direct them to the bible which many own but never open, and let them deside for themselves. As for the comments about Christmas. You have done a lot of research about the translation of languages which honestly you no doubt have studied in depth and I have not, but just research christmas, in any encyclopedia. It was a pagan holiday to worship the sun, that was adopted to get though's not of christian faith to convert. Thus we do not celebrate it. Also you are correct we do not give our allegence to anyone but god himself. We stay politicly neutral. Many have gone to prison and been beaten for not going to war. We stand firm in our beliefs. How many of other religions would denounce there faith in thoughs type of conditions. This is in this country and many others. But dont you find it funny that religious leaders of any religion will pray to god and send there troops off to war on both sides to kill someone of there same religion? So does that mean the the side that wins the war god has favor over even if both side say are catholic or who have you? Jehovah's witness's will never kill another in war because we dont go to war. If your fortunate enough to live in the US then things are easier here in the sense that we have rights the allow us to worship freely but for JW's in other land that isnt the case. Next blood, the bible clearly states to abstain from blood. Thus we do. Think of all the dieses that have been transferred by blood transfusions. In the 80's it wasnt filtered as well and many people contracted aids and various other types of dieses. The medical science has improved but there still are many case's of people who have contracted some kind of dieses. We do except blood expanders and various treatment in thoughs cases, as that individual conscience allows. In fact there are many bloodless hospital around the country that do bloodless surgery. It forces the doctor to be more careful during the operation so as to lose as little blood as possible. Would you rather have the doctor do a a better job on the operating table or just be hacked up so to speak and give as many pints of blood as they see fit? Next in No way shape or form do we encourage divorce. There are instance's that would perhaps require a separation, mainly if the situation has become that of a violent nature. As JW's we are encouraged not to marry outside of our faith. For the main reason that can cause problems for the couple. Its like marrying some one who hates football. They wont watch it, talk about it, nothing dont want to here it and dont want you to either. And before you went to and watched every game possible Think that will cause a argument or 2? And there is no quota, we do it to talk to people about the bible. It's showing love for our neighbor. Lastly yes we do believe that there are 144,000 who are to rule in heaven as kings and priest along side of jesus in revelation. The bible also speaks of a great crowd that will be here on earth in a paradise after gods day of judgement. As he created adam and eve as perfect people in paradise, his original purpose hasnt changed. He will bring the earth and those one it back to the way it was intended to be. Also if everyone that dies goes to heaven, or at least the good people, why dosnt everyone want to die? Many would give everything the have to live just one day longer. No one wants to die, why? because we were created to live forever. think about it Only a small part of our brain is used and is capable of storing vast amounts of info. Our cell's are constantly replacing themselves in essence we should live forever. But we are not perfect and thus die. By the way I am not an "elder", not even the best example of a JW. but I thought i should say something. I do apologize for the many spelling and typing errors. But i think I have got it out the way i wanted to. Im not looking for a debate or to insult anyone just wanted to comment on a few things. and try to share the flip side of he coin. And just so everyone knows the hardest thing to do is to go to a complete strangers home and talk to them about religion or at least try to. Thanks for the ear.
02/06/2019 9:56 am
..................We certainly do not want to convert anyone, but do try to direct them to the bible which many own but never open, and let them deside for themselves..............................
Amos 51 post is obviously is a cut and paste from somewhere else, which is fine. But I for one would appreciate hearing what you have to say about my above post for starters.
Secondly, with respect to your above comment, that isn't true. JW's don't point people to "the bible" they point them to "their bible" which, as I've described, is different. AND JW's most certainly do want to "convert" Christians into becoming JW's, which is the entire purpose of them coming to knock on people's doors in the first place.
Be well.
PC1
"You still got the tools, but they're different" (Angelo Dundee => Muhammad Ali)
6'4"
242 lbs.
leaning out a bit
"One guy thinks he can, another guy thinks he can't. Both are right. Which one are you son?" (Nike commercial football coach)
02/06/2019 10:16 am
my daughter has a very good frined, a woman, whose family is JW.. This friend decided that she no longer wished to participate( the jw stance toward women is archaic) and the family has done everything but abduct her to convince her to change her mind. They will be forced to disown her as their daughter if she choses to no longer be a jw. not much freedom of choice there, it has been an ordeal.
jb
02/06/2019 10:36 am
again i didnt want to argue, and it is cut and pasted from here to my email to spell check it and back. Also we will use any bible on earth granted we can read the lang. and im sorry about your friend JB. anyway i really only got on here to post question of my own and saw this, so i have said what i think and dont really have anything else to say. again to each his own. thnx
02/06/2019 10:55 am
Any bible on earth? I'll give you your choice of 3 ........
KJ
NIV
NASB
John 1.1 "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God."
How does that square with your belief system and your own NWT?
In terms of not wanting to "argue", no one is arguing. What is typically the case with JW's is that through bible "study" programs, Christians who have a cursory understanding of the bible are brought into the WTS through regular indoctrination and are taught to study the bible in conjunction with WTS study aids (WTS publications). Provided steady progress is made toward a conversion, friendships will be allowed to blossom. When other concerned family members intervene, elders from the congregation will also intervene. If the weekly studies are discontinued, whatever friendships have begun will also discontinue. If a spouse becomes a member while the other does not, eventually the phrase "unequally yolked" starts to roll off the lips.
There may not literally be purple kool-aid served each Sunday at the local Kingdom Hall but many cult-like attributes are in play.
So if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, guess what?
Close enough.
Be well.
PC1
"You still got the tools, but they're different" (Angelo Dundee => Muhammad Ali)
6'4"
242 lbs.
leaning out a bit
"One guy thinks he can, another guy thinks he can't. Both are right. Which one are you son?" (Nike commercial football coach)
02/06/2019 11:11 am
that's a reasonable response amos and i respect your decsion not to get in a discussion here re this. In my experience very little good every comes of it since this is a hotbutton issue. now back to bodybuilding! I hope your question was answered.
jb
02/06/2019 11:40 am
we all have sometimes have to believe in something to make our live worthwhile, some believe in budha, some christian, some muslim some hindu some ourself. it all boils down to one thing.....are u happy with your life ? do you find yourself fulfilled with what u believe ? if yes...well you hit the jackpot, if not, may be there is something more to life than all those religion I mention above. my good old friend taught me something looong time ago, he said " I don't need anyone (means jesus nor muhamad nor budha nor anything) to come between me and my God. he has no religion but he believes that God exist and he is one of the happiest person I have ever met. Just my one penny
Another day, Another challange and Opportunity
02/06/2019 12:10 pm
[John 1.1 "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God."
I am Greek. In archaic greek, John 1.1 is like this:
"�� ���� ��� � �����, ��� � ����� ��� ���� �� ���, ���
���� ��� � ����� "
To make your job easier, the bold says, in plain english, that Word was a god, not The God. It simply gives a divine nature to him.
My parents are both JW's and I was raised by them in those beliefs. For my own personal reasons, I no longer partisipate with the JW's. There was no abduction, no force, no threats, no nothing. They are way to kind to do something like that. They respected my decision, even if they were sad by that decision.
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