red meat.

the problem is not saturated fat its trans fat and suger.we live in a free country you can choose your meat to be grass fed or the stuff you buy in a store . red meat is good for you it should be eaten in its whole form that also includes raw milk and good farm eggs full fat the way mothernature ment for it to be.

unfortunately i cant agree with u smallhead, in the respect that saturated fats represent no problems at all i want to make myself perfectly clear here, so ill do a quick run thru of my diet... when im bulking ill take in about 16oz of xtra lean beef per day and 4 whole omega 3 eggs as well as some chicken and some dairy for my protein intake... for the saturated fats though, the omega 3 eggs are already almost at the 1:1:1 ratio (they actually have less saturated fat then monos or polys) that i was mentioning b4 and theres about 35 grams of fat in the xtra lean ground beef... i supplement with about 6 grams of fish oil per day, 1 tbsp of udo oil and i add in 1 tablespoon of olive oil to my beef stirfry as well i usually throw in some walnuts and natural peanut butter into my protein shakes... so out of the 120ish grams of fat per day i might take in when im bulking, only about 50 or so of that is saturated and the other 70 is unsaturated... i would consider this to be a healthy balance of fats im not advocating unlimited amounts of saturated fat at all, only a good balance... im not at all suggesting that u should be eating bacon, sausages, regular ground beef etc... id actually encourage one to eat the leanest cuts they can find... the point is not to eat as many saturates as possible, or to retrict them to nothing, only to keep them in balance... its balance that most ppl are missing

Londonmuscle. I am interested in the objective truth. The reputable and respectable resources that I've read all suggest to reduce saturated and trans fats. As a matter of fact I'm not aware of a single reputable and respectable organization that suggests otherwise. Before I continue this discussion I want to clearly define your position. You believe that saturated fat does not increase your risk of cardiovascular disease provided your ratio of fats is 1:1:1 (mono:poly:sat). Is this true? Do you have any reputable/respectable organizations that promote such dietary recommendations? I'm not talking about a handful of studies showing that oils are good for you but an organization that states saturated fat does not increase your risk of cardiovascular disease ... if this is your position. The American Heart Association recommends that you limit your intake of saturated and trans fats. AHA Scientific Position The major kinds of fats in the foods we eat are saturated, polyunsaturated, monounsaturated and trans fatty acids. Saturated fats and trans fats raise blood cholesterol. Dietary cholesterol also raises blood cholesterol. A high level of cholesterol in the blood is a major risk factor for coronary heart disease, which leads to heart attack, and also increases the risk of stroke. The recommendations are to balance caloric intake and physical activity to achieve and maintain a healthy body weight; consume a diet rich in vegetables and fruits; choose whole-grain, high-fiber foods; consume fish, especially oily fish, at least twice a week; limit intake of saturated fat to <7% of energy, trans fat to <1% of energy, and cholesterol to <300 mg/day by choosing lean meats and vegetable alternatives, fat-free (skim) or low-fat (1% fat) dairy products and minimize intake of partially hydrogenated fats; minimize intake of beverages and foods with added sugars; choose and prepare foods with little or no salt; if you consume alcohol, do so in moderation; and when you eat food prepared outside of the home, follow these Diet and Lifestyle Recommendations. By adhering to these diet and lifestyle recommendations, Americans can substantially reduce their risk of developing cardiovascular disease, which remains the leading cause of morbidity and mortality in the United States.- Diet and lifestyle recommendations revision 2006: a scientific statement from the American Heart Association Nutrition Committee.

As a matter of fact I'm not aware of a single reputable and respectable organization that suggests otherwise. Before I continue this discussion I want to clearly define your position. You believe that saturated fat does not increase your risk of cardiovascular disease provided your ratio of fats is 1:1:1 (mono:poly:sat). Is this true? Do you have any reputable/respectable organizations that promote such dietary recommendations? The American Heart Association recommends that you limit your intake of saturated and trans fats. the 1:1:1 ratio i mentioned came from dr. john berardis recommendations... haha, and i think dont he has a lot of respect for the AHA either... he states that: "Back in the 80’s, the US Surgeon General’s office, the American Heart Association, and the US Department of Agriculture joined forces and took up arms against what they considered to be the great nutritional scourge—dietary fat. That’s right, they attempted to eradicate dietary fat from our nutritional lexicon with extreme prejudice. If you’re too young to remember this phenomenon, it might seem downrightfoolhardy to attack an entire macronutrient category. In fact, waging war against one-third of the macronutrient triumvirate may even seem unthinkable." but neways, im gonna save myself a lot of time here and just refer u to some of the sources ive gotten my information from... the subject is entirely too complicated for me to bring up all the info here on this thread to defend my position plz read these 3 articles and i think it will make things a lot simpler... i cant think of any other way to do this... http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/f_word.htm http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/fatroundtable.htm http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/fatroundtable2.htm the second two articles are set in a roundtable type fashion that get the opions of dr. lonnie lowery and another individual whose studying under dr. lemon, as JB did... these articles essentially cover everything that im standing for and a WHOLE lot more i know its a hell of a lot to read, but its the easiest way to do things... i suppose u can argue with their positions but this is why i think the way that i do and i think there is more than enough evidence there to hold my position

Bump to Data nad London Muscle, both good points guy's and great to see you both supporting your positions through research! One more reason im proud to be a part of the board, members like you guys! 🙂

:thumb: mmmmmmmmmmm.........steak........

if you do your research on the net you will find grass fed beef has a omega 6 to omega 3 ratio of 1-1 unlike corn fed beef of 20- 1 this is were health problems come into play the same with eggs. it is not the foods fault it is humans fault man has messed food up but with some reasearch you can find the truth. look at the websight of strongman jon anderson and see what he eats and see what he looks like and you will see my point and he is not the only one the truth is out there

if you do your research on the net you will find grass fed beef has a omega 6 to omega 3 ratio of 1-1 unlike corn fed beef of 20- 1 this is were health problems come into play the same with eggs. great point bud... theres a new book out there called The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael Pollan and thats exactly the point hes making, that corn and corn based by-products are now in almost everything we eat... lol, he calls us the "corniest" culture on earth... every oil and almost everything we feed our livestock is some corn based product he states that: "Corn is cheaper than sugar, so high fructose corn syrup replaced it as sweetener in sodas in the 1980s, and in just about everything else ever since.... Corn is in the coffee whitener and Cheez Whiz, the frozen yogurt and TV dinner, the canned fruit and ketchup and candies, the soups and snacks and cake mixes…everything from the toothpaste and cosmetics to the disposable diapers, trash bags, cleansers, charcoal briquettes, matches, and batteries, right down to the shine of the magazine that catches your eye by the checkout: corn" i havent read the book myself, ive only seen him on Politically Incorrect with Mike Mahler, but im definitely gonna pick that up when ive got some spare cash if u wanna see the interview u can check that out here, just scroll down a few clicks and start the video... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594200823/ref=pd_kar_gw_1/104-6869884-3756764?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

ya holy intellect makes a good point... u should try and stick with xtra lean meat, i actually prefer the taste of the leaner cut... xtra lean mean, gram for grams contains 1/3 the cals that regular ground beef does... so while 6oz of xtra lean ground beef is approx. 300 cals, 6oz of regular ground beef is around 900!! the grocery store where i go carries "buffalo meat" 6 oz cut 180 cals 2.5g fat 0.5 sat fat 40g protien

havent had buffalo in a long time. But good stuff.

Buffalo is good meat. I typically have ~150g of beef round eye and ~200g of chicken a day of store bought the rest of my protein comes from cottage cheese and protein powders.

Although John Berardi sounds like an intelligent person LondonMuscle you have to have a very critical mind when reading a single individuals arguments ... esp when they don't cite references. Case in point is Mike Mentzer. His arguments are sound. But the reality is ... a single set is not a long term approach to building muscle. http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...ion/f_word.htm "Well, back in the 80s, doctors and researchers, alarmed by the rising incidence of heart disease and obesity, needed a strategic target. As lipid researcher Lonnie Lowery has put it, they needed a perfect enemy ... 20 subsequent years of scientific investigation were spent attempting to prove that dietary fat (specifically saturated fat and cholesterol) was leading the heart disease brigade. " Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. I would have a hard time being convinced that researchers were not being as objective as they could. Esp 20-30 years ago when $ wasn't guiding research as it is today. What did they get together at some convention and arbitrarily "pin" this epidemic on fat? Furthermore volumes and volumes of research has found a link between dietary fat and disease. As far as good fats vs. bad fats ... this isn't a new concept. Udo Erasmus wrote his PhD thesis on this subject (which eventually lead to his book FATS THAT HEAL FATS THAT KILL) and this was in 1986. Lastly "Through the 80s and 90s, anti-fat campaigns were very effective in "helping" us reduce our fat intake from 40% of our diets to 32%." May very well be a fact ... but every time I go into a McD's its fucking packed. Last time I was at a buffet I didn't see people heading to the salad bar. To be honest I seriously doubt that north americans are eating healthier than we did a decade ago. http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...roundtable.htm http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...oundtable2.htm I'll check these articles out later in the week.

Although John Berardi sounds like an intelligent person LondonMuscle you have to have a very critical mind when reading a single individuals arguments agreed, but hes not the only one ive gotten my info from... dr. lonnie lowery who is a lipids researcher also shares a similar stance with JB... cassandra forsythe does low carb research at the university of conneticut, shes a high fat fan also, and so is charles poliquin JB isnt actually a researcher, but he considers himself to be a research scientist in the respect that his opinions are either supported by research or if not, then they arent in direct conflict with it it should also be kept in mind though that fat research is a very new field and we havent even scratched the surface of it... therefore its very difficult to let ourselves be soley guided only by what has been tested only thru regular checkups and blood tests can we really see how our diet is affecting our health... i know JB requires his patients to get blood work done b4 they become clients with him, and continually throughout his coaching... in this way he can monitor how his clients are responding to his dieting methods and make the proper adjustments... in this matter, hes got a great advantage over either of us in that he can examine his theories on a large number of ppl, where we can only examine ourselves... this allows him in essence to conduct research, that although isnt being published, still provides valuable data... so i can only assume that the fat intake hes suggesting to his clients are helping them to improve their health, otherwise he would change his recommendations To be honest I seriously doubt that north americans are eating healthier than we did a decade ago. well we can both agree on this point... dont quote me on this but if i remember correctly, the percentage of obese ppl in the US has doubled since 1985... lol, thats definitely not a sign of improved dietary habits 🙂

I should make a point that its been my experience that low fat dieting is the best method to shed body fat. I've found that by eating a low fat diet I can get ripped with feelings of fullness and satisfaction. Where as a higher fat intake left me craving food since I was eating less (fat has more than 2x the cals of protein and carbs). Whats healthy? Well ideally I agree that a good 1/4 of your total calories should be from fat. Fats not bad for you. When eating low fat I can certainly tell as my joints can bother me if I'm training too heavy ... or maybe thats due to a low fat level period ... anyways Clarence Bass mentions in his articles that adding a tbsp of olive oil to his (already low fat diet) improved his cholesterol. If I remember correctly steak contains a lot of palmitic acid? Stearic acid, from what I've read isn't much of a problem, palmitic in steak is.

data i feel fuller on a higher fat diet mind you i am not a bodybuilder more of a strength guy. i am not a advocate of of a protien diet i keep a good body fat level and weigh about 225 i just lean more to a diet that is based around natural foods agood steak has awhole lot more nutrition then a skinless chicken breast and if you can find raw milk you would be doing yourself a big favor but what ever works for you