Bill Roberts 2-4 cycle, sust or test e?

<<The benefits for the heart by gaining 4pounds of muscle in 2 weeks against gaining 20 pounds in 12 and then losing 8 of them should be obvious.>>

If I agreed with your premises, I'd certainly embrace your conclusion. Short cycles would be demonstrably superior to long. But I don't believe that it is possible either to gain 4 lbs. of muscle in two weeks, under any circumstances, or 20 lbs. in 12 weeks. Weight gain and muscle gain are concepts that should be kept very much distinct, IMO.

Posted by: Malchir

Is it healthy to gain a large amount of muscle in short time? I think not. The benefits for the heart by gaining 4pounds of muscle in 2 weeks against gaining 20 pounds in 12 and then losing 8 of them should be obvious. Imo it's better to spread it out.

Another thing is cholesterol values going to crap. After only 2 weeks on they will be back to ok much sooner, if already bad in the first place. After a 12 weekers they will have been crap for awhile and will remain crap some time after.

Mentally it's better imo too. How many people lose half of their gains after a long cycle and get depressed, and even quit the sport, or get back to juice while still not fully recovered. And you still need to wait time on+pct while off if you want to consider your health. That's only 4 weeks on shorters, 20 weeks on a longer. 20 weeks is a long, long time to lose gains...

There are plenty more advantages, but I'll post some of those later, as my work pauze is over.

You've received some very good advice from the senior members of this forum. If you're intent on experimenting with a short cycle, please do it and report back. You don' t have to justify it.

In regards to your statement that people losing half their gain after a long cycle. Let's assume it's true and do the math. Half of something is something. Half of zero on a two week cycle is Zero + risks (possible shutdown, legal risks, ect...).

As for me, I did not feel shit until the late in the fourth week or early in the fifth week of a test e cycle.

Posted by: Wheelies

You've received some very good advice from the senior members of this forum. If you're intent on experimenting with a short cycle, please do it and report back. You don' t have to justify it.

In regards to your statement that people losing half their gain after a long cycle. Let's assume it's true and do the math. Half of something is something. Half of zero on a two week cycle is Zero + risks (possible shutdown, legal risks, ect...).

As for me, I did not feel shit until the late in the fourth week or early in the fifth week of a test e cycle.

I'm not justifying my stuff, I'm just discussing what short cycles are all about. There are some very good points made here. Sadly 2 weekers are not very common, so it's mostly speculation here. I read Zircon had some experience, but not with a long ester. I have read the case Bill Roberts had, it was very clear. It can be found on mesomorphosis.

"Feeling" is not a good thing to go by. I never "felt" anything from a winny only yet gained 8 kg from it. 6kg of those were the first 2 weeks. I kept everything until I noticed I was too big to fight well and not strong enough and started cutting.

But I very much disagree with the saying that building true muscle needs more than 2 weeks time. Before homeostatis the body is just more responsive to AS.

I'm convinced that 4 2 weeks will give you at least the same amount of muscle than 1 8weeker in the end. The muscle gain will just be more spread out.

Anyway, I don't want a lot of muscle. I'm more interested in recovery,better body composition, I want my endurance to be in top notch shape when fight training restarts. I missed last seasons beginning due to a heavy injury, and my entire season was worthless. As we say in Dutch, "good start means you've already half won"

Huh???? 6kg in two weeks from winny???? I've never heard of that type of gain from winny...........was it laced with Anadrol?

Anyway, sounds like you have your mind set on short cycles. Let us know how it goes. I seriously want to know if I've been doing wrong all this time.

Posted by: Wheelies

Huh???? 6kg in two weeks from winny???? I've never heard of that type of gain from winny...........was it laced with anadrol?

Anyway, sounds like you have your mind set on short cycles. Let us know how it goes. I seriously want to know if I've been doing wrong all this time.

How many people you know run winny onlys? Here in Belgium its one of those favourite first cycles next to Dbol only. Plus that I seem to react very well to winny, most people only get 4-6kg in total. After week 3 gains pretty much were at a standstill, even though I ate like a pregnant woman and trained like a madman.

Should be noted that I ate like a horse, and had to quit fight training because because an injury. Didn't feel any libido crash afterwards even tho I didn't do any pct(I was told on a local board that winny didn't need a pct).

I loved the stuff, yet I won't touch it again because of the infamous lipid inversion it causes. Otherwise it would've stacked it with the test.

my first cycle was a winny only cycle and it worked quite well. let me just say that we are not all after the same thing here and need to keep that in mind. we also need to keep in mind that muscle gain, endurance, recovery, and health are very much moving targets since there is little recent hard science available on much of what we do.

needless to say, 6 kg in two weeks is not a common occurence with any anabolic to say nothing of winny, as has been said, lean body weight and weight are two different things. If that were the case, why not just do two week cycles of winny, minimal side effects from short cycles, out of your system quickly, and terrific gains. your lipids and liver should bounce back quickly.

let us know how the short cycle goes including some accurate bf, water weight, and lbm measurements. more information is always better than no information.

jb

Posted by: jboldman

my first cycle was a winny only cycle and it worked quite well. let me just say that we are not all after the same thing here and need to keep that in mind. we also need to keep in mind that muscle gain, endurance, recovery, and health are very much moving targets since there is little recent hard science available on much of what we do.

needless to say, 6 kg in two weeks is not a common occurence with any anabolic to say nothing of winny, as has been said, lean body weight and weight are two different things. If that were the case, why not just do two week cycles of winny, minimal side effects from short cycles, out of your system quickly, and terrific gains. your lipids and liver should bounce back quickly.

let us know how the short cycle goes including some accurate bf, water weight, and lbm measurements. more information is always better than no information.

jb

I've seen a blood test after winny, the guys doctor so badly that until he told him he had done winstrol the doctor adviced him to go to the hospital immediatly to find out what's wrong. I searched a lot about it, all the bad info I found about it causing lipid inversion scared me away from it. I not so sure recovery will be that quick at all. Otherwise, as I said, I would've done it again without a question, if perhaps not for the possible joint pain(didn't experience it luckely, but I supplemented with glucosamine, MSM and omega 3-6-9)

I've just been informed that my provider is pulling out of the game due to not recieving any new gear because the UG's shut down, real nice. The same thing happened to me as well when I was ready to order from China. I hope to find another one quick, so i can start this freaking cycle and report my experience.

i was actually being a little facetious about the winny, if you read any of my posts about 17aa steroids you will realize that i am not in favor of doing them. test is really the best and the safest.

jb

6 kg !
2 weeks !
winny !!!

Posted by: Malchir

Is it healthy to gain a large amount of muscle in short time? I think not. The benefits for the heart by gaining 4pounds of muscle in 2 weeks against gaining 20 pounds in 12 and then losing 8 of them should be obvious. Imo it's better to spread it out.

Another thing is cholesterol values going to crap. After only 2 weeks on they will be back to ok much sooner, if already bad in the first place. After a 12 weekers they will have been crap for awhile and will remain crap some time after.

Mentally it's better imo too. How many people lose half of their gains after a long cycle and get depressed, and even quit the sport, or get back to juice while still not fully recovered. And you still need to wait time on+pct while off if you want to consider your health. That's only 4 weeks on shorters, 20 weeks on a longer. 20 weeks is a long, long time to lose gains...

There are plenty more advantages, but I'll post some of those later, as my work pauze is over.

You've received some very good advice from the senior members of this forum. If you're intent on experimenting with a short cycle, please do it and report back. You don' t have to justify it.

In regards to your statement that people losing half their gain after a long cycle. Let's assume it's true and do the math. Half of something is something. Half of zero on a two week cycle is Zero + risks (possible shutdown, legal risks, ect...).

As for me, I did not feel shit until the late in the fourth week or early in the fifth week of a test e cycle.

Bah... All decent sources around my place seem to be extinct so I'm gonna try mail order.

Found decent priced halotestin that way, so I'll switch test with halo for my 2 weeker.

I wonder tho, what could I add in to prevent my tendons from getting injured... I wonder if var at very small doses might help with that(5-10mg/day), as primo is laughably expensive, and I'd like to skip deca.

tes + halo is great (I think never tried it tho..depends how u react).

wud be 100times better if u cud give prop but give it a try and let us know.

the problem here is u may only figure out u have shutdown after 4-5 cycles...because of long ester etc.

upt o you.

IMO, you would need more than 1000mg for the two weeker to be successful. Then comes the problem of injecting 2g or so in one day. JB will tell you that a lot of people get flu-like symptoms from injecting this much at once. However, spread this amount over 3-4 days, and you won't really be 'off' after two weeks.

If you are going the two-week route.. I think t-prop, tren acetate, dbol would be a much better option than one whopping dose of TE (or sustanon) in one day.

Edit to add: I can't imagine there would be any difference between sustanon and Test E. Both are poor choices, IMO, for a cycle designed for 'quick' recovery