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Topic starter
12/09/2018 7:23 pm
I'm 35 and doing sustanon (for TRT purposes) at 250 mg every 2 weeks for 6 months.
Last month I have finished my "first cycle" (if it can be considered a cycle) of Deposteron (Testosterone Cypionate) at 200 mg per week for 8 weeks. I have gained 11.02 pounds (or 5.22 kilograms) of lean mass and lost 6.61 pounds (3.52 kg) of fat mass. I'm currently at 222.66 pounds (101.20 kg) and body fat at 17.96%. Before the cycle I was at 218.25 pounds (99.50 kg) and body fat at 21.80%.
What I wanted to discuss here is:
1. The real necessity of using 500 mg or so of test to get such results.
2. What do you think that will happen the day when I do test at 500 mg?
But just wanted you to know that in my opinion my first real cycle will be when I do 500 mg of test per week.
P.S. Just wanted to thank Lifts and Jbol (I have deep respect for the man who I consider a friend) for helping me several months ago in the designing my first cyle, even though the weekly dosage was different from the one I did.
"The medals don't mean anything and the glory doesn't last. It's all about your happiness. The rewards are going to come, but my happiness is just loving the sport and having fun performing" ~ Jackie Joyner Kersee.
Topic starter
12/09/2018 8:18 pm
Just want to add some more food for thought on that cycle:
1. I had some serious libido adaptations. Sex was very very intense. During the cycle my mind changed a lot regarding sex, it was incredible and powerful, just like an animal thing (which was great).
2. My body have changed a lot and people started to notice it, specially after pumping iron. Looked in the mirror and enjoyed the end result.
"The medals don't mean anything and the glory doesn't last. It's all about your happiness. The rewards are going to come, but my happiness is just loving the sport and having fun performing" ~ Jackie Joyner Kersee.
13/09/2018 3:43 am
Well, you can certainly get results from less than 500 mgs. per week, but your results will be better as you increase the dose - at least to a point well beyond 500 mgs. per week.
I don't think your results will be much more dramatic at 500 mgs. per week. You've come quite a ways now, it will be harder to get those kind of dramatic gains going forward.
I also really enjoy the effect exogenous test has on my sex life.
Topic starter
13/09/2018 4:32 am
Well, you can certainly get results from less than 500 mgs. per week, but your results will be better as you increase the dose - at least to a point well beyond 500 mgs. per week.
You mean in order to achieve more impressive results some individuals have to use 1000 mg and up per week?
I don't think your results will be much more dramatic at 500 mgs. per week. You've come quite a ways now, it will be harder to get those kind of dramatic gains going forward.
Why's that?
I also really enjoy the effect exogenous test has on my sex life.
Lucky we are .
"The medals don't mean anything and the glory doesn't last. It's all about your happiness. The rewards are going to come, but my happiness is just loving the sport and having fun performing" ~ Jackie Joyner Kersee.
13/09/2018 5:23 am
As you gain, you need to increase the dose to continue to make progress, as the body will not want to keep the muscle you have gained.
You will probwbly not gain another 10lb if you did the same cycle again, unless you lose all of the gains you made this time.
Does that make sense?
13/09/2018 6:06 am
to have gained that much on that little tells me that you have been living with low test for some time. It is remarkable the gains that can be made by first time users on very little amounts of AAS but, as nytol points out, as time passes and yo start exceeding your "genetic potentials" it becomes harder and harder to make gains requiring more test.
Oh, congrats on a great first cycle!
jb
13/09/2018 7:02 am
Agreed. And yes, there are some individuals, such as professional bodybuilders, who have gone so far beyond their natural limits that they would probably actually shrink if they did not use several grams of gear per week - continuously.
13/09/2018 8:01 am
Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.
Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA. [email protected]
Testosterone increases muscle mass and strength and regulates other physiological processes, but we do not know whether testosterone effects are dose dependent and whether dose requirements for maintaining various androgen-dependent processes are similar. To determine the effects of graded doses of testosterone on body composition, muscle size, strength, power, sexual and cognitive functions, prostate-specific antigen (PSA), plasma lipids, hemoglobin, and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) levels, 61 eugonadal men, 18-35 yr, were randomized to one of five groups to receive monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist, to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion, and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg of Testosterone Enanthate for 20 wk. Energy and protein intakes were standardized. The administration of the GnRH agonist plus graded doses of testosterone resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 253, 306, 542, 1,345, and 2,370 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Fat-free mass increased dose dependently in men receiving 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone weekly (change +3.4, 5.2, and 7.9 kg, respectively). The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001). Changes in leg press strength, leg power, thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations, whereas changes in fat mass and plasma high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol were negatively correlated. Sexual function, visual-spatial cognition and mood, and PSA levels did not change significantly at any dose. We conclude that changes in circulating testosterone concentrations, induced by GnRH agonist and testosterone administration, are associated with testosterone dose- and concentration-dependent changes in fat-free mass, muscle size, strength and power, fat mass, hemoglobin, HDL cholesterol, and IGF-I levels, in conformity with a single linear dose-response relationship. However, different androgen-dependent processes have different testosterone dose-response relationships.
"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
~W.B. Prescott
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
~Albert Einstein
13/09/2018 4:47 pm
I just had a minute, and had this abstract on hand. This piece of literature is the reason aas users increase their dose. On top of this, there is plenty of evidence showing the safety, and complete reversal of side effects at this dose.
One could make the argument that using less than 600mgs of test is foolish due to the high benefit to risk ratio.
"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
~W.B. Prescott
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
~Albert Einstein
Topic starter
13/09/2018 5:20 pm
As you gain, you need to increase the dose to continue to make progress, as the body will not want to keep the muscle you have gained.You will probwbly not gain another 10lb if you did the same cycle again, unless you lose all of the gains you made this time.
Does that make sense?
I'm planning to use the same cycle next time plus deca at 100 mg/week for 10 weeks this time.
"The medals don't mean anything and the glory doesn't last. It's all about your happiness. The rewards are going to come, but my happiness is just loving the sport and having fun performing" ~ Jackie Joyner Kersee.
Topic starter
13/09/2018 6:11 pm
to have gained that much on that little tells me that you have been living with low test for some time. It is remarkable the gains that can be made by first time users on very little amounts of AAS but, as nytol points out, as time passes and yo start exceeding your "genetic potentials" it becomes harder and harder to make gains requiring more test.Oh, congrats on a great first cycle!
jb
Thanks Jboldman. And you're damn right I've been with low test levels for maybe two years or so until last February 18, 2006 when I started my TRT.
"The medals don't mean anything and the glory doesn't last. It's all about your happiness. The rewards are going to come, but my happiness is just loving the sport and having fun performing" ~ Jackie Joyner Kersee.
Topic starter
13/09/2018 6:46 pm
Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA. [email protected]
Testosterone increases muscle mass and strength and regulates other physiological processes, but we do not know whether testosterone effects are dose dependent and whether dose requirements for maintaining various androgen-dependent processes are similar. To determine the effects of graded doses of testosterone on body composition, muscle size, strength, power, sexual and cognitive functions, prostate-specific antigen (PSA), plasma lipids, hemoglobin, and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) levels, 61 eugonadal men, 18-35 yr, were randomized to one of five groups to receive monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist, to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion, and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg of Testosterone Enanthate for 20 wk. Energy and protein intakes were standardized. The administration of the GnRH agonist plus graded doses of testosterone resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 253, 306, 542, 1,345, and 2,370 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Fat-free mass increased dose dependently in men receiving 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone weekly (change +3.4, 5.2, and 7.9 kg, respectively). The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001). Changes in leg press strength, leg power, thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations, whereas changes in fat mass and plasma high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol were negatively correlated. Sexual function, visual-spatial cognition and mood, and PSA levels did not change significantly at any dose. We conclude that changes in circulating testosterone concentrations, induced by GnRH agonist and testosterone administration, are associated with testosterone dose- and concentration-dependent changes in fat-free mass, muscle size, strength and power, fat mass, hemoglobin, HDL cholesterol, and IGF-I levels, in conformity with a single linear dose-response relationship. However, different androgen-dependent processes have different testosterone dose-response relationships.
Good job r2e! This paper by Bhasin is a classic, and the reason I started studying anabolic steroids, I got hooked pronto!
"The medals don't mean anything and the glory doesn't last. It's all about your happiness. The rewards are going to come, but my happiness is just loving the sport and having fun performing" ~ Jackie Joyner Kersee.
13/09/2018 7:40 pm
well yes and no...it's still debateable whetehr suppression is the same with 600mg as with 125mg...it's not just abotu how much you gain, but also how much you keep.
I suspect for some people the ideal might be 300mg pw (taking into account they have weak endocrine system or whteva and struggle to recover, or produce a ;lot of estrogen which hampers recovery), and some might recover fine on 700mg a week. I just think the distibution curve is far too wide over a range of factors to make a generalisation.
But I hear ya...perhpas its betetr to just hit it hard and get out? Hence the possible popularity with some on short cycles...
14/09/2018 6:00 am
why were their test levels so low? The guys on 20mg a week must have felt like crap!
And the guys on 125mg a week had levels of only 542? THat's odd, I woudl have expected at leats double that.
Also for 600mg a week I would expect higher than 2300 odd.
14/09/2018 6:42 am
"However, different androgen-dependent processes have different Testosterone dose-response relationships."
What does that mean? Other factors which are affected by testosterone in the human body are different in dose response?
I assume this means that some thigns are negatively affected by increase in dose?
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