Why do I have to do 15 sets for bicep soreness?

I truly have learned from Iron Addict's posts, I've incorporated his advice and have achieved good results with most of it, but like everything else in life, your (and my) mileage varies.

His arm advice doesn't work for me either, and for me additional volume works better. But he's also the first to say that what works for one doesn't necessarily work for all, and vice versa.

But 16 sets NATURAL is WAY too much volume.

You have respectable stats otherwise and I can see why you would want bigger arms. My arms have always been a sticking point as well. To me, if someone has good arms, delts, abs, and calves, and little else, they at least LOOK like they're in good shape.

At 5'10" tall I would think you'd be capable of achieving a natural 17" - 18" arm. My suggestion is that you back off your intensity of lifts like the bench press, squatts, and shoulder press for awhile and focus more on your arms. Which is NOT to say you shouldn't do those lifts at all. But not as often: Maybe you hit those once every 7-10 days and with less intensity, but train your arms 2X in that same period. You may be able to train them 2X very intensely in that period, but if that doesn't work for you, train 1X intensely and 1X more moderately. And don't worry about your bench/shoulder press weights dropping off a bit. Just focus on your arms. Once you have them where you want to, you can refocus on the compound lifts.

If you're doing 6-8 sets truly to failure with strict form, resting only 1 minute between sets, your arms will have been smoked. And I do think arm training goes better when one is not burned out first on the heavier compound lifts.

Doing 16 sets 2x a week gives you soreness, but you're no doubt overtraining them, and is probably why you're not getting the results you want from all your hard work.

Best of luck.

Art---I am almost your exact size and have the same problem as you. I have no problem putting size everywhere else...just my arms.

PC1 gave some great advice. I'm definitely going to try that, what also helps me from time to time is to throw some "21's" at the end of your arm work-out. You might have to go somewhat light, but they will kill your arms, and they are like doing 3 sets of 7 in one set.

If you figure something else out that works well, please pm me.

Thanks,
wolf78

I simply don't believe in volume training.. I should revise that statement. I believe in volume training when the trainee cannot summon the right intensity. I believe a certain amount of volume is necesary for optimal hypertrophy due to stimulation of type2 muscle fibers, but again, with enough intensity to overload the muscle fibers, which is the key. Low rep stimulation is mainly Type I and it is more about creating a coordination of muscle neurons which results in strength gains, but NOT as much size.

The law of specificity of adaptation will basically dicate that your body will adapt to the loads placed on it. Thus, if you are volume training, you muscles will adapt to the volume of the loads.

There is even more research that eccentric training or "negaitves" increase type II muslce fibers by over 10 times compared to Concentric training. Thus, the pace of your repetititions becomes key. Therefore, I see a problem with volume training becoming an exercise in concentric training, due to the volume emphasis.

Consider this:
Muscle strength, fiber size, and surface EMG activity of the quadriceps were compared after 36 sessions (12 weeks) of maximal isokinetic concentric or eccentric leg extensions. Eccentric training increased eccentric strength 3.5 times more (pre/post 46%) than concentric training increased concentric strength (pre/post 13%). Eccentric training increased concentric strength and concentric training increased eccentric strength by about the same magnitude (5 and 10%, respectively). Eccentric training increased EMG activity seven times more during eccentric testing (pre/post 86%) than concentric training increased EMG activity during concentric testing (pre/post 12%). Eccentric training increased the EMG activity measured during concentric tests and concentric training increased the EMG activity measured during eccentric tests by about the same magnitude (8 and 11%, respectively). Type I muscle fiber percentages did not change significantly, but type IIa fibers increased and type IIb fibers decreased significantly in both training groups. Type I fiber areas did not change significantly, but type II fiber area increased approximately 10 times more in the eccentric than in the concentric group.

Thus, for hypertrophy, a good rule of thumb is to use weight that is heavy enough to cause it to be diffult from keeping it through the eccentric portion longer than 3 seconds, but not so light as that you could hold it from dropping to begin with.

Thanks for the input! .... I read everything and the adjustments I'm going to try for the rest of the summer are:

* Stick to 9 sets each for triceps and biceps
* 6 reps per set (to finish)
* overload principal each workout
* more concentration on eccentric portion of the rep

I like the idea of putting the chest and back stuff at the end of the workout. I'll probably go with 2 intense arm workouts followed by 1 moderate workout. I've used this new training for two workouts so far and my arms aren't "volume sore" but feel trained. My mental energy is very high with the changes. Lots of focus at the arms.

I'll repost this thread with my results in about two months. Maybe it will help others with their arm growth.

Hey!.... PC1, I'm in your neck of the woods right now (salem, MA). It's 59 friggin degrees in the middle of June!! ... I can't wait to get back to Miami!

Yeah, the weather here has been ridiculous! Monday was 86, hot sticky and humid. Every other day has been 60's, cool and cloudy. Geez.

Man I have to tell you I don't know how you could possibly do 9 sets to failure 3X a week bro?! If I do 6 intense sets of tri's, and I'm talking about going to failure and doing s-l-o-w negatives to the count of 3-5 seconds, I'm SMOKED. At 45 years old, I'm proably twice your age and don't have your powers of recovery, but still, my tri's are sore for 2-3 days after that. I suspect that if you up your intensity, cut back on your volume, and focus on doing quality negatives with only 1 minute rest between sets you're going to get the results you seek.

BTW, I only train my arms like this once a week, and the other time is much less intense, just 2-3 moderate sets.

I think you'd enjoy better results that way.

But in any event, best of luck.

PS: Miami sounds nice around January/February, I'd die in that heat and humidity this time of year!

Posted by: PC1

Yeah, the weather here has been ridiculous! Monday was 86, hot sticky and humid. Every other day has been 60's, cool and cloudy. Geez.

Man I have to tell you I don't know how you could possibly do 9 sets to failure 3X a week bro?! If I do 6 intense sets of tri's, and I'm talking about going to failure and doing s-l-o-w negatives to the count of 3-5 seconds, I'm SMOKED. At 45 years old, I'm proably twice your age and don't have your powers of recovery, but still, my tri's are sore for 2-3 days after that. I suspect that if you up your intensity, cut back on your volume, and focus on doing quality negatives with only 1 minute rest between sets you're going to get the results you seek.

BTW, I only train my arms like this once a week, and the other time is much less intense, just 2-3 moderate sets.

I think you'd enjoy better results that way.

But in any event, best of luck.

PS: Miami sounds nice around January/February, I'd die in that heat and humidity this time of year!

I was just in Key West last week and it was 90 degrees and 90 percent humidity! Talk about HOTTER then hell. Actually, Hell is a DRY HEAT. Much easier to take!

IV T EXACT PROB MY ARMS R THE HARDST PART OF MY BODY 2 GET 2 GROW

Posted by: JGUNS

I simply don't believe in volume training.. I should revise that statement. I believe in volume training when the trainee cannot summon the right intensity. I believe a certain amount of volume is necesary for optimal hypertrophy due to stimulation of type2 muscle fibers, but again, with enough intensity to overload the muscle fibers, which is the key. Low rep stimulation is mainly Type I and it is more about creating a coordination of muscle neurons which results in strength gains, but NOT as much size.

The law of specificity of adaptation will basically dicate that your body will adapt to the loads placed on it. Thus, if you are volume training, you muscles will adapt to the volume of the loads.

There is even more research that eccentric training or "negaitves" increase type II muslce fibers by over 10 times compared to Concentric training. Thus, the pace of your repetititions becomes key. Therefore, I see a problem with volume training becoming an exercise in concentric training, due to the volume emphasis.

Consider this:
Muscle strength, fiber size, and surface EMG activity of the quadriceps were compared after 36 sessions (12 weeks) of maximal isokinetic concentric or eccentric leg extensions. Eccentric training increased eccentric strength 3.5 times more (pre/post 46%) than concentric training increased concentric strength (pre/post 13%). Eccentric training increased concentric strength and concentric training increased eccentric strength by about the same magnitude (5 and 10%, respectively). Eccentric training increased EMG activity seven times more during eccentric testing (pre/post 86%) than concentric training increased EMG activity during concentric testing (pre/post 12%). Eccentric training increased the EMG activity measured during concentric tests and concentric training increased the EMG activity measured during eccentric tests by about the same magnitude (8 and 11%, respectively). Type I muscle fiber percentages did not change significantly, but type IIa fibers increased and type IIb fibers decreased significantly in both training groups. Type I fiber areas did not change significantly, but type II fiber area increased approximately 10 times more in the eccentric than in the concentric group.

Thus, for hypertrophy, a good rule of thumb is to use weight that is heavy enough to cause it to be diffult from keeping it through the eccentric portion longer than 3 seconds, but not so light as that you could hold it from dropping to begin with.

believe it or not volume training works. There are only a few ways to continuously overload skeletal muscle tissue

1) increase weights & maintain volume

2) increase volume & maintain weights

3) maintain both but decrease the amount of time in which you complete them

4) increase the time under tension

4) any combination of these. keep in mind none of these can be done infinately so you need to focus on using all of them

People get too caught up in the idea that there is only one right way to train and that's just horseshit. Whatever it takes to damage the muscle enough to initiate the adaptive response is what needs to be done.

also please show me this study stating that you can turn fibers into type II fibers through eccentric training. If you can do that i'll videotape me dancing around my living room in a tutu. You won't find it. ANY kind of training... that includes olympic lifting, powerlifting, volume, HIT, endurance running... causes a shift in fiber type from the intermediate fibers to type I... it does NOT go the opposite way.

Period.

-Layne

Try doing biceps after back, do some V gripd pulldowns and reverse grip pulldowns near the end of your back work. After back do 2-3 sets of standing cable culs with a straight bar to failure with strict form. I would be surprised if your biceps didn't start to grow.

Art,

Whats the status of your biceps with the eccentric training?

Solid Post Layne, I definately agree.

Another point I want to make is the link between DOMS and muscle growth. DOMS is NOT required to grow, nor is it an appropriate indicator of growth itself. Integrating what Layne said, no specific training method will increases soreness any more than the other, given relatively equal exersion. Inducing hypertrophy is a matter of eliciting an adaptive metabolic responce through whatever training you deem suitable.

JGUNS alluded to intensity; maximizing intensity and continuous manipulation (Attn: Layne) of your training program in order 'trick' your body are the keys to training. IMO this is why people commonly get frustrated when following a workout routine that promised great results and theirs are mediocre compared to others doing their own thing. They are overlooking the most fundemental principle in existance for success: hard work!

IM IN full agreement with stay puft

HARD WORK::=SUCCESS
along with the rite nutrition ..balance..exercise..and of course COMMITMENT....its a fact that 70% of people give up in the 1st few months ...NO COMMITMENT FOR HARD WORK...

you got it or you havent ....period

and layne kindda knows his shit..just look at the guy !!!

my current favorite exercise for biceps is a forced eccentric biceps curl. Take a weight you can do 12 reps using a curl bar. Using a partner, curl the weight and then have your partner help with a forced negative to a 2 second count. THis have been very effective.

The same workout can be achieved by doing pullups last in your workout and slowing the eccentric to a 2-4 second count. It is really effective when you are no longer able to do the pullup and have to "jump" to the full curl position and then slowly lower your weight.

jb

My favorite bicep mass tool has always been synthol injections. But barring that, I've noticed that a lot of people who do ridiculous numbers of sets are just not using enough load. Try some really heavy cheat curls (a little cheat, not a reverse grip power clean) at low reps to give the muscles a shock for a couple weeks. Then the volume again.